Yamaha Owners’ Thread (AVR, Pre-pro, Amp)

[PENG]

Which definition?

Who decides what is the best definition?

Do all live concerts and all live sounds measure flat?

I responded to your post #166, so I guess it's your definition.

Flat simply means the system would not add or subtract to the intented level at any frequency in the recording. So if the reference is live recording, flat would be one (not the only) of the requirements for accuracy sake.

For a HiFi system, imo using live recordings would be more appropriate than live, as reference.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Ok. But very generally please, are you implying that it is best to treat a room for optimum acoustics, including acoustical treatments if necessary, then match your equipment to your room, and then EQ as necessary?

Pretty close. Start with good equipment, this would include loudspeakers, that work in the space you want to fill, you are looking for speakers that don't really need EQ if you can get away with it, and follow up with the electronics to drive those speakers properly. Room Treatment next, dealing with the issues you can't fix with speaker choice. And then EQ as necessary, with hopefully no need for EQ at that point, or, if you make wise choices, no need even for room treatment.

That last statement will get some friction from people who believe you always must address the room, and employ room treatments, so not everyone would agree with me there. But I tend to take the position that most people (and most wives) want a comfortable home first and a HiFi second, which means the HiFi fits the room, not the other way around.

Some people don't really care about those things, so they are free to treat the room first and let the decor fall where it may. You can also integrate decor and acoustic treatment, but of course that drives up the cost.

Because I don't have to please anyone but myself I decorate the room with an eye to sound performance, but I use techniques that, if I didn't tell you that bookcase is there or that drapery is the way it is and where it is for a reason, you wouldn't know it's an acoustic feature.

But you can't expect others to orient a room for those reasons when they want it to look a certain way for aesthetic or home decor reasons, so that's what I keep in mind when offering advice to others. The reality is that the vast majority of people who buy HiFi don't actually want the best sound, they have other priorities and they want the sound system to fit those first, with sound quality somewhere down the list.

They want "the best" but in a kind of Consumer Reports "I don't want to be stuck with a lemon" kind of best, not "it sounds better than anything you can get" best. So what do you suppose the chances are you can get them to pay attention to room treatments?

People who want the best Sound Quality and who are likely to sign up to this forum are 1-in-20 buyers, or maybe even 1-in-40. And of those, the number who would take the time to do room treatment are a tiny fraction of the registered members.

 

[Ataraxia]

Pretty close. Start with good equipment, this would include loudspeakers, that work in the space you want to fill, you are looking for speakers that don't really need EQ if you can get away with it, and follow up with the electronics to drive those speakers properly. Room Treatment next, dealing with the issues you can't fix with speaker choice. And then EQ as necessary, with hopefully no need for EQ at that point, or, if you make wise choices, no need even for room treatment.

That last statement will get some friction from people who believe you always must address the room, and employ room treatments, so not everyone would agree with me there. But I tend to take the position that most people (and most wives) want a comfortable home first and a HiFi second, which means the HiFi fits the room, not the other way around.

Some people don't really care about those things, so they are free to treat the room first and let the decor fall where it may. You can also integrate decor and acoustic treatment, but of course that drives up the cost.

Because I don't have to please anyone but myself I decorate the room with an eye to sound performance, but I use techniques that, if I didn't tell you that bookcase is there or that drapery is the way it is and where it is for a reason, you wouldn't know it's an acoustic feature.

But you can't expect others to orient a room for those reasons when they want it to look a certain way for aesthetic or home decor reasons, so that's what I keep in mind when offering advice to others. The reality is that the vast majority of people who buy HiFi don't actually want the best sound, they have other priorities and they want the sound system to fit those first, with sound quality somewhere down the list.

They want "the best" but in a kind of Consumer Reports "I don't want to be stuck with a lemon" kind of best, not "it sounds better than anything you can get" best. So what do you suppose the chances are you can get them to pay attention to room treatments?

People who want the best Sound Quality and who are likely to sign up to this forum are 1-in-20 buyers, or maybe even 1-in-40. And of those, the number who would take the time to do room treatment are a tiny fraction of the registered members.

Thanks! That helps. The reason I inquire is because about a month or two ago I decided to upgrade my budget level speakers and kind of fell into a rabbit hole of decisions regarding those and electronics. Super easy to get analysis paralysis. Anyway, for the time being my setup consists of KEF R3 L/R, Dual Rythmik F12 SE's, and a Yamaha RX-A2080.

Initially I thought I'd be 50/50 movies music hence AVR but now that I own better speakers I'm finding myself more like 90/10 music/movies. Music is a whole different level of enjoyment now that I have more revealing speakers. Even music I never really considered listening to before.

So further than that I am looking to move, possibly buy a small house or townhouse/condo (If townhouse/condo I want a room separated from other units for audio dampening),and I have the luxury of doing what I want pertaining to the HiFi environment, keeping the priority acoustics over general aesthetics. And in the medium to long term future I will make substantial upgrades to my equipment.

So your comment about audio mistakes peaked my interest as far as how to engineer the HiFi environment (room and equipment) because I will try to ensure it has the makings of HiFi relaxation room, and only for that purpose. So far I've found that ideally it would be similar in dimensions to the golden ratio @.618 rectangular or for example about 11' long, 9' wide, 8' foot ceilings. A fairly standard easy to find size room. Best not having parallel walls but may have to let that component slide.

The other unexpected want I'm dealing with is now I'd like to have a dedicated music system instead of my previous attempt at mixing music/movies so as to keep costs down but still get high quality equipment! But honestly with what I have now music and movies sound extremely good to my untrained ears! Maybe because my reference before was not close to anything HiFi!

 

[Ataraxia]

Within this thread are many opinions and insertions about loudspeakers, EQ and room acoustics...
Attached is a link to a presentation from Dr.Toole who IMHO is 1 of the most knowledgible authorites for loudspeakers, his thoughts are covered in his books but here is an informative YouTube presentation. I have known Dr.Toole for >20 years and worked closely with him on multiple, proprietary projects..

Just my $0.02...

Thanks. I took this presentation in this morning. This kind of stuff is right up my alley. I develop strong opinions on controversial matters after due diligence but thankfully I have almost zero emotion when it comes to listening to all points of view when people have different opinions. People are complex! And perception is one of the most un-provable external complexities!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I'd like to have a dedicated music system instead of my previous attempt at mixing music/movies...

Why? Do you feel that one good system can't sound equally good for both music and movies?

 

[Ataraxia]

Why? Do you feel that one good system can't sound equally good for both music and movies?

I don't really know. I'm only about 3 months into putting a little more than hobbyist effort into the research. One of the biggest hurdles I think is hearing different speakers with different electronics in a timely manner. Plus consumer choice is off the charts with the different electronics and speaker pairing options!

When I whittled down my choices about my first upgrade (speakers) I was almost precisely divided 50/50 between choosing Ascend Sierra 2's and KEF R3's. The main reason I went with KEF other than I like the aesthetics way better (kind of dysfunctional when deciding on audio I know but I like visual art too, kinda like those McIntosh amps look way cool),is because I could tell they were extremely revealing by listening to demos and reading reviews online, even without auditioning them at home. So they might not be good for all music. For example, I'm not too much into classical but the Sierra 2's, as far as I can tell, would definitely tell you, in an audibly uncomfortable but very true way, when a violin didn't hit quite the right note.

Now, don't get me wrong. I want revealing speakers but figured I'd go with the R3's first so I could play any genre of music as I search out new stuff.

Now, the KEF's are revealing too! But in little more subtle way. The Uni-Q with dome tweeter obviously is different technology than the Seirra 2 RAAL ribbon. I actually want to own Ascend's eventually. But then there's Philharmonic BMR's! Those I believe would be stellar too! But 6 ohm's and lower sensitivity - Rabbit Hole! I do find myself trying to get the KEF's to be very revealing. Like when you can hear subtle the differences in the way the word comes out.

For example, do me a favor - Listen to Dave Matthew's Band song '"Oh" with your favorite speakers you feel are revealing. Listen to the second line, specifically HOW the "c" in "caving in" comes out. It sounds different than the "c" in the other "caving in line". I tiny audible mistake but pretty cool to be able to experience it. Another example is with the RAAL you'll hear, precisely when and how a singer smacks their lips, the KEF'S you'll hear it, and hear it well, but not with quite the same precision.

Of course the recording is key! There's a lot of good music with so-so recordings that render it kinda - blah... Then there's stuff I didn't think I'd listen too much like Leonard Cohen's "You want it darker." Extremely good recording. I'd never listen to Cohen for example in my car, but with Higher-Fi it's a totally different and awesome experience!

So, again, I do not know if one system can be equally good for music and movies. I'm sure a system can though if it's set up, paired well, and adjusted well.

I do know my current setup: KEF R3 L/R, Dual Rythmik F12SE's, and Tidal Hi-Fi through my Yamaha RX-A2080 Music Cast app sounds awesome! I've found i'm almost exclusively music now - didn't see that coming. And movies are of awesome too.

But I can't help but wonder if, for example, I put a Musical Fidelity M6si on top of my Yamaha, "Would music a tad, more? Better?

For now I'm pulling in the reigns a bit on budget though. I think my next investment will be getting MQA decoding into my system. Maybe some sub, low freq control mini dsp or something. I know I need to just keep learning the system I have. It is awesome!

What do you think! In your signature you Have all the speakers so you can tell me more! Do they all sound the same regardless of what kind of amp is driving them? Might it be better to have a box with ONLY well designed music first circuitry? Hmmmm.

Is higher end audio the proverbial Pandoras Box?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't really know. I'm only about 3 months into putting a little more than hobbyist effort into the research. One of the biggest hurdles I think is hearing different speakers with different electronics in a timely manner. Plus consumer choice is off the charts with the different electronics and speaker pairing options!

When I whittled down my choices about my first upgrade (speakers) I was almost precisely divided 50/50 between choosing Ascend Sierra 2's and KEF R3's. The main reason I went with KEF other than I like the aesthetics way better (kind of dysfunctional when deciding on audio I know but I like visual art too, kinda like those McIntosh amps look way cool),is because I could tell they were extremely revealing by listening to demos and reading reviews online, even without auditioning them at home. So they might not be good for all music. For example, I'm not too much into classical but the Sierra 2's, as far as I can tell, would definitely tell you, in an audibly uncomfortable but very true way, when a violin didn't hit quite the right note.

Now, don't get me wrong. I want revealing speakers but figured I'd go with the R3's first so I could play any genre of music as I search out new stuff.

Now, the KEF's are revealing too! But in little more subtle way. The Uni-Q with dome tweeter obviously is different technology than the Seirra 2 RAAL ribbon. I actually want to own Ascend's eventually. But then there's Philharmonic BMR's! Those I believe would be stellar too! But 6 ohm's and lower sensitivity - Rabbit Hole! I do find myself trying to get the KEF's to be very revealing. Like when you can hear subtle the differences in the way the word comes out.

For example, do me a favor - Listen to Dave Matthew's Band song '"Oh" with your favorite speakers you feel are revealing. Listen to the second line, specifically HOW the "c" in "caving in" comes out. It sounds different than the "c" in the other "caving in line". I tiny audible mistake but pretty cool to be able to experience it. Another example is with the RAAL you'll hear, precisely when and how a singer smacks their lips, the KEF'S you'll hear it, and hear it well, but not with quite the same precision.

Of course the recording is key! There's a lot of good music with so-so recordings that render it kinda - blah... Then there's stuff I didn't think I'd listen too much like Leonard Cohen's "You want it darker." Extremely good recording. I'd never listen to Cohen for example in my car, but with Higher-Fi it's a totally different and awesome experience!

So, again, I do not know if one system can be equally good for music and movies. I'm sure a system can though if it's set up, paired well, and adjusted well.

I do know my current setup: KEF R3 L/R, Dual Rythmik F12SE's, and Tidal Hi-Fi through my Yamaha RX-A2080 Music Cast app sounds awesome! I've found i'm almost exclusively music now - didn't see that coming. And movies are of awesome too.

But I can't help but wonder if, for example, I put a Musical Fidelity M6si on top of my Yamaha, "Would music a tad, more? Better?

For now I'm pulling in the reigns a bit on budget though. I think my next investment will be getting MQA decoding into my system. Maybe some sub, low freq control mini dsp or something. I know I need to just keep learning the system I have. It is awesome!

What do you think! In your signature you Have all the speakers so you can tell me more! Do they all sound the same regardless of what kind of amp is driving them? Might it be better to have a box with ONLY well designed music first circuitry? Hmmmm.

Is higher end audio the proverbial Pandoras Box?

I have owned plenty of speakers and heard plenty more. Same with amps, Preamps, Pre-pros, Integrated Amps, and AVR.

Over a long time you will form your own opinions.

This is mine.

Bias is significant. Bias is huge. You are not immune to bias. Your mind will play tricks on you.

Speakers - great accurate speakers (measure well and sound great) will be “revealing”. The Ascend won’t reveal anymore details than the KEF, Revel, Salk, or RBH, and vice versa. They are equally “revealing”. They may all different, but accurate speakers (anechoic response +/- 3dB or better) will be accurate and revealing. It’s what they do (like the Geico commercials ).

EQ (auto or manual) can change the sound significantly (good or bad).

Speakers may interact with the room differently. Some people think the room can cause the speakers to sound “brighter” (more treble) or “warmer” (less treble).

The amps by themselves might have very “subtle” difference in sound, but don’t depend on hearing these differences consistently to save your life when the amps are truly level-matched.

Separates (2Ch preamps, amps, integrated amps) don’t sound any better Pre-pros and AVR. So there is no reason to have 2 different systems- one for music and one for movies. Just put your money into one Great System to rule them all. But it’s okay to have more than one sound room for other purposes- family parties, etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh yeah, Yamaha MusicCast is awesome.

 

[ellisr63]

Yamaha Music-Cast for Streaming Music from your iPad or Phone to your AVR.

A few years ago I started streaming music from my iPad to my Denon using AirPlay. But sometimes my iPad couldn't connect/locate my Denon's AirPlay. Sometimes it would stop playing right in the middle of the song. I thought maybe it was just my Cox Cable's 50 Mbps internet speed.

2 years ago, I moved into my new house which has AT&T's 1,000 Mbps internet speed (fiberoptic cable going from the street into my house modem). AirPlay did not improve at all on my Denon's. So I gave up and just played music files from my HTPCs, which meant turning on the TV or Projector.

Last night, I played with Yamaha's Music-Cast. Set up was straightforward - just follow the instructions on the app (iPad, Phone). One step requires pushing the "CONNECT" button on the AVR unit for about 5 seconds. This links the AVR's Music-Cast to the iPad.

Once I had this easily setup, I installed the Music Cast app for my Android phone. I thought I had to go through process of setting up again. But no. It was already set up! So setting it up on my iPad somehow also set it up on my Samsung S9+ phone! Talk about easy.

Now I've only streamed music from both my iPad and phone to the Yamaha for about 1 hour last night and for a few minutes this morning. Both worked 100% so far. I will have to give this a long-term trial.

But safe to say that from now on I will be streaming music from my phone or iPad to my Denon using Music-Cast. It seems to work 100% better than using AirPlay on my Denon's.

Yamaha also has AirPlay. But I don't see the need for using AirPlay if Music-Cast works 100%.

There's got to be another use for AirPlay somehow. Perhaps other members can shed some light.

MusicCast on phone.

You can even take a pic of each room.

ONe thing i wish we could do is stream from Alexa to our Yammy...then we could hear it across good speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ONe thing i wish we could do is stream from Alexa to our Yammy...then we could hear it across good speakers.

You mean play music on the Echo device (like Echo stereo) and stream that to the Yamaha via MusicCast?

What kind of Echo device do you have?

 

[ellisr63]

You mean play music on the Echo device (like Echo stereo) and stream that to the Yamaha via MusicCast?

What kind of Echo device do you have?

Yup, we have the original Amazon Echo...tall black cylinder.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yup, we have the original Amazon Echo...tall black cylinder.

Oh, I see. Alexa (Amazon Echo device) plays music (internet) using one of the music services (Pandora, Amazon, etc.).

And you are thinking it would be nice if it could go directly from the Amazon Echo device to the Yamaha via MusicCast.

Yamaha MusicCast is supposed to work with Alexa voice commands.

You can tell Alexa to play music using some other sources - like music on your phone or iPad or music from the Yamaha's Pandora and other music services.

But you cannot tell Alexa to play music directly from the Echo device.

Maybe @highfigh knows something about this.

 

[ellisr63]

Oh, I see. Alexa (Amazon Echo device) plays music (internet) using one of the music services (Pandora, Amazon, etc.).

And you are thinking it would be nice if it could go directly from the Amazon Echo device to the Yamaha via MusicCast.

Yamaha MusicCast is supposed to work with Alexa voice commands.

You can tell Alexa to play music using some other sources - like music on your phone or iPad or music from the Yamaha's Pandora and other music services.

But you cannot tell Alexa to play music directly from the Echo device.

Maybe @highfigh knows something about this.

I have wished many times that the Echo had an optical out at least so i could hook it up to the cxa5100 too as an option as the audio on the Echo sucks for anything other than news IMO. My wife loves using Echo, whereas I just use NetRadio on the cxa5100.

 

[highfigh]

Lordy, every time I hear "Parasound P5", I can't help but think about @ematthews P5's perpetual problems.

Yeah, that was a bad situation but it's almost impossible to change that kind of component when a manufacturer has already been making that model for a while and it's really bad that the control caused that kind of problem for Parasound, who only wanted to offer a really good product (and they did, other than the ones that had noise). The upside- the new model has a control more similar to what most other manufacturers use and that means it has a 'Power On Level Preset' option, which I like, A LOT. They also increased the gain in the phono section.

 

[highfigh]

Oh, I see. Alexa (Amazon Echo device) plays music (internet) using one of the music services (Pandora, Amazon, etc.).

And you are thinking it would be nice if it could go directly from the Amazon Echo device to the Yamaha via MusicCast.

Yamaha MusicCast is supposed to work with Alexa voice commands.

You can tell Alexa to play music using some other sources - like music on your phone or iPad or music from the Yamaha's Pandora and other music services.

But you cannot tell Alexa to play music directly from the Echo device.

Maybe @highfigh knows something about this.

Do you mean, the Echo can't be a music source? The Echo Dot can because it has a 3.5mm jack, but the taller one doesn't have this. It can, however, tell an Echo Dot to play music in whatever location you want, as long as it's on the same network.

Telling Alexa to control the MusicCast is one of the Skills that need to be set up in the Alexa app. It can transmit or receive BT, as well (the MusicCast and the Echo Dot can do this).

If you need to send BT a long distance, look at the Miccus products- I mentioned one that I used for a school gym and at home, it worked over a 180' distance, with my house between me and the Miccus piece. I also paired one of these to a Denon AVR, but haven't don't much as far as testing since the Denon is in the basement and I would need to check the range from the 1st Floor of their house.

 

[highfigh]

Which definition?

Who decides what is the best definition?

Do all live concerts and all live sounds measure flat?

They try for smooth, but only if the sound guy knows what they're doing. Flat sounds, well, flat, dull, bereft of life and if it hadn't been nailed to its perch...... sorry. Got carried away.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have wished many times that the Echo had an optical out at least so i could hook it up to the cxa5100 too as an option as the audio on the Echo sucks for anything other than news IMO. My wife loves using Echo, whereas I just use NetRadio on the cxa5100.

So when you go into MusicCast and it lists all the possible DEVICES for streaming (phone, iPad, etc.),it doesn't list AMAZON ECHO as a device?

That's too bad. If MusicCast can find phones and tablets via WiFi as devices, I wonder why it can't find Echo as a device using WiFi?

 

[highfigh]

You can ignore Harman's finding if you don't believe them. I don't think they are 100% right either, not even close.

My point is about how you define accurate, referencing to "live" and "flat" FR, does not seem logical. A perfectly flat FR system does not automatically mean it can reproduce a recording accurately, but a non flat FR system is not "accurate" by definition. I am talking about in room condition.

If the source signal provides a flat response, it could be called 'accurate' when the playback system reproduces it in the same way. It's difficult to do this, because any signal will cause interactions in the room that don't occur in the signal path. If the result of pure waves sent to the equipment and played through speakers is that same waveform with minimal changes, it's accurate.

 

[highfigh]

So when you go into MusicCast and it lists all the possible DEVICES for streaming (phone, iPad, etc.), it doesn't list AMAZON ECHO as a device?

Not that I have seen, but it will show up in BT pairings. I'll have to check- I haven't used my Dot in quite a while and when I did use it with the Yamaha, it was via BT and the analog output, to compare the SQ with the Yamaha. Dot's audio through a real system isn't as good, but for casual listening, it's OK.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not that I have seen, but it will show up in BT pairings. I'll have to check- I haven't used my Dot in quite a while and when I did use it with the Yamaha, it was via BT and the analog output, to compare the SQ with the Yamaha. Dot's audio through a real system isn't as good, but for casual listening, it's OK.

Oh, Bluetooth is a SOURCE in MusicCast.

So if Echo has BT, then it would stream from the Echo device to the Yamaha via BT?