The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[Danzilla31]

w.r.t movie theaters being not the best places to demo sound, I think that may be true in general but not of the premium chains like new AMC's etc. Keep in mind I'm talking about apartment dwellers/normal living room HT and not dedicated $$$ HT's.

I don't think Atmos is a failure at all, they certainly are in every product and no doubt made lots of people upgrade. I view it as a failure in the impact its made to HT in general. Will it every be mentioned in the same breadth as vhs->dvd, tape->mp3, 2.0->5.1, dvd->bluray->4k, hell no, and I have no doubt tons of research and $$ has gone into the tech.

Isn't it too early to say what kind of impact it's actually going to make? It's still early in the game for atmos to know what impact it will make I'm feeling but that's just my take.

And I don't mean this in a bad way but how can you say something is a failure that you haven't properly tested in your own listening environment. A movie theater is a huge difference from any home theater set up even living rooms. We can do things they can't and vice versa. Just seems hard to compare somethings worth from two very different testing environments.

 

[Danzilla31]

Fwiw I, like @danzilla have 7.3.4 in my Lr. Definitely not dedicated lol.

Rock on brother! My dream is too one day get to 7.4.4!!!. If I build it they will come!

 

[snakeeyes]

Yes those are the successors. He said he likes dsu more than neo, but they are not the same type of upmixer and are not available together in new AVR’s. Neo6 is available in older PLIIx AVR’s while dsu is available in new ones. Since he hasn’t installed his C34e’s I was confused on what exile meant.


Wondering how dsu works without height speakers? Since there’s nowhere to upmixing to I mean.

From 2.0 to 5.1. The Apple 4K TV has a lot of Content in 2.0 that I use DSU to get 5.1. It is miles better than Neo but Neural x is close.

 

[Defcon]

1) there is a dsu music mode.
2) now phantom imaging occurs between the height layer and the bed layer not just the bed plane. This puts sounds into the room much more than other formats could.
Why do you say Atmos isn’t object based? It still is but the difference between commercial and home Atmos is the number of objects supported. Iirc, dts were the ones saying they were speaker agnostic, and you could put speakers anywhere and it would work. I don’t believe them.

1) source? do you mean center width spread? I did a quick search and dont see it, most people agree DSU works great with heights, most also say for 2.0 music its not that good. I love listening to music with PLII Music.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

From 2.0 to 5.1. The Apple 4K TV has a lot of Content in 2.0 that I use DSU to get 5.1. It is miles better than Neo but Neural x is close.

Ok. Thanks for the context! That makes a lot of sense. I was wondering if maybe I was having brain gas. Lol

 

[snakeeyes]

Ok. Thanks for the context! That makes a lot of sense. I was wondering if maybe I was having brain gas. Lol

Sorry I’m watching Tropic Thunder Blu-ray and not paying much attention because I’m laughing so hard at the movie.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Sorry I’m watching Tropic Thunder Blu-ray and not paying much attention because I’m laughing so hard at the movie.

Niiice!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

1) source? do you mean center width spread? I did a quick search and dont see it, most people agree DSU works great with heights, most also say for 2.0 music its not that good. I love listening to music with PLII Music.

Yeah, I had too much rattling in my brain and kids flapping. I was putting together center spread/PLIIx/thinking you had height speakers etc. Can’t multitask anymore today lol.

I also like PLIIx for music, but it depends on content/mood. Stuff like NIN and infected mushroom or a perfect circle, I always use it. Pink Floyd, or acoustic stuff mostly 2.3. What I don’t like is when PLIIx puts sounds where they don’t belong. For instance a random drum in the right surround, or other odd sounds. Electronic music where there isn’t necessarily a soundstage in the conventional sense is a lot more fun.

 

[Defcon]

Yeah, I had too much rattling in my brain and kids flapping. I was putting together center spread/PLIIx/thinking you had height speakers etc. Can’t multitask anymore today lol.

I also like PLIIx for music, but it depends on content/mood. Stuff like NIN and infected mushroom or a perfect circle, I always use it. Pink Floyd, or acoustic stuff mostly 2.3. What I don’t like is when PLIIx puts sounds where they don’t belong. For instance a random drum in the right surround, or other odd sounds. Electronic music where there isn’t necessarily a soundstage in the conventional sense is a lot more fun.

I've had songs where the instruments form a perfect soundstage but the singer is to my side. I'd love to know how exactly the mixer algorithm decided that !!

There are so many purists who will scoff at you for listening to music in anything than 2.0 direct. Or using any features like DynamicEQ or dsp modes. Screw em!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I've had songs where the instruments form a perfect soundstage but the singer is to my side. I'd love to know how exactly the mixer algorithm decided that !!

There are so many purists who will scoff at you for listening to music in anything than 2.0 direct. Or using any features like DynamicEQ or dsp modes. Screw em!

I tend to agree. If it tastes good, eat it! If it sounds good, turn it up!

 

[Bookmark]

As just yet another viewpoint, to add to the many good existing comments.

Atmos/Dts:X have a good number of recent films which do show a lot of the potential of the formats and equally a few that, frankly were wasting their time. Ready Player One, Mad Max Fury Road, Kong Skull Island are a ones which do make the most of it, Oceans 8 does not. It is largely down to the mix and sound engineer, but also the type of movie. Kitchen sink, court room, romance type dramas are unlikely to work particularly well. Action, Horror, Fantasy, Sci Fi, Superhero movies are more the type to exploit the new formats.

Regarding DSU/Neural X the mileage can vary here too. My 1930s Marx Brothers collection are never going to sound like they fill the room. Last night however, I watched 28 Days Later (2002) and 28 Weeks Later (2007) Dvds as part of my Halloween selections. These up mixed very well. Gun fire around the room, music, helicopters and rain overhead and a number of good dialogue pans. So the same kind of categories as mentioned work here too. Anything since probably the 1990s will likely improve with an up mix.

For music it can be a bit hit or miss up mixing, but as a general consensus Auro 3d possibly works best, with DSU much prefered over Neural X. The DSU centre spread option is required to make the most of music, but should be off for films. Essentially it stops music from pulling everything to the middle.

Will it every be mentioned in the same breadth as vhs->dvd, tape->mp3, 2.0->5.1, dvd->bluray->4k, hell no, and I have no doubt tons of research and $$ has gone into the tech.

Like all the previous mentions Atmos/Dts:X is having an impact on new releases, old re-issues and the availability of capable equipment. It took well over a decade for Dvds to supplant VHS and blu rays have taken equally as long. 4K/HDR needs households to replace the existing standard def or hi def tvs and projector to have a chance at being the default, that doesn't happen overnight. Remember they still sell vinyl and in fact the sales are increasing.

I do watch a fair bit of streaming and OTA tv and while it does work, sometimes very well, I still prefer to own actual discs for both music and films.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don’t know why you think Atmos is a failure. Fwiw, plenty of people have had better Atmos results at home than commercial theaters. Other than size and scale, I’ve been disappointed with commercial theaters for a long time, and definitely prefer to stay at home. @AcuDefTechGuy is a convert for sure and iirc has not had great enjoyment of commercial Atmos. He can tell you as someone who was against Atmos for a long time, he’s had his mind changed greatly.

I confirm that I have watched many movies at commercial ATMOS theaters (OKC, LA, Dallas, Orlando) and I have been 100% disappointed in them.

This was probably the main reason I was extremely reluctant to upgrade to ATMOS even as I was building my custom home, which would have been the easiest time to upgrade. The installers installed 14 RBH Ceiling Speakers throughput my House, so 4 more Ceiling Speakers would have been too easy.

I wish I was even 50% impressed when I was watching “Gravity” at the commercial ATMOS theater. Then I would have had them installed 4 big-a$$ RBH in-Wall Speakers up in the Ceiling somehow for ATMOS, instead of 4 x 8” ceiling speakers!

But because all the commercial ATMOS theaters sucked 100%, I thought ATMOS was pure 100% gimmick.

The difference between commercial ATMOS theaters and my home ATMOS is 100% Night/Day and unequivocal.

 

[Danzilla31]

I confirm that I have watched many movies at commercial ATMOS theaters (OKC, LA, Dallas, Orlando) and I have been 100% disappointed in them.

This was probably the main reason I was extremely reluctant to upgrade to ATMOS even as I was building my custom home, which would have been the easiest time to upgrade. The installers installed 14 RBH Ceiling Speakers throughput my House, so 4 more Ceiling Speakers would have been too easy.

I wish I was even 50% impressed when I was watching “Gravity” at the commercial ATMOS theater. Then I would have had them installed 4 big-a$$ RBH in-Wall Speakers up in the Ceiling somehow for ATMOS, instead of 4 x 8” ceiling speakers!

But because all the commercial ATMOS theaters sucked 100%, I thought ATMOS was pure 100% gimmick.

The difference between commercial ATMOS theaters and my home ATMOS is 100% Night/Day and unequivocal.

It's not too late! They can still put them up there! Life finds a way!!!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A few questions for you -

1. With only a 5.1 config, will DSU sound any better than any of the current matrix processing moders (PL II music/movies, DTS Neo6, all the custom modes by Yamaha etc) ? AFAIK DSU doesn't even have adjustable params and I definitely can hear a big difference between PL II music and movies.

2. Going from 2.0 -> PL II is adding 3 speakers and almost every movie has a discrete 5.1 track and you have sound from all around in the 2d plane. Adding 4 more overhead speakers for Atmos, you will only get overhead when the scene calls for it - which is much much much less common. Its obvious - when you go about your day, how many times are sounds coming from above? Very few times, most of it is in front/back/sides etc. And what about sounds from *below* you? That would be true 360 coverage which of course isnt present.

I've read plenty of reviews of Atmos movies from people with proper equipment and only in a very few cases is it said to be a huge difference. You never have guns firing or doors closing or trains coming from above you, like you do with surround sound. If its ambient effects like rain, why do we need point sources? How many movie scenes have a plane flying above?

I am in no way saying Atmos isn't good tech. The current implementation isn't good. And what happened to the 'object based' sound? It was supposed to reproduce the same soundfield regardless of number of speakers and not depend on SL/SR etc but guess what, thats exactly what it does.

You sound just like me when I was 100% skeptical and reluctant, which I regret 100%.

It would have saved me from hauling my a$$ up the hot attic in the summer, cutting through the damn foam insulation, installing the four 8” ceilings speakers, and then reapplying the freaking foam insulation over the rear speaker enclosures!

But back to DSU for 2Ch contents, it is 100% better than PL-II even if you don’t have ATMOS. The Center Dialogue sounds like it is discrete 5.1. The Surrounds sound like it is discrete is 5.1.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's not too late! They can still put them up there! Life finds a way!!!!!

That would require a lot more work.

But I am extremely happy with my 4 ceiling speakers now.

Well, hell, you never know in life, right? Stranger things have happened!

 

[Defcon]

But back to DSU for 2Ch contents, it is 100% better than PL-II even if you don’t have ATMOS. The Center Dialogue sounds like it is discrete 5.1. The Surrounds sound like it is discrete is 5.1.

If true, this is reason enough to upgrade. Why? Cause ~50% of broadcast and streaming content is still 2.0, not to mention every youtube video. If they sound better with DSU then its a huge plus.

Allow me to be a little skeptical because I haven't heard this from anyone else. But its exciting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If true, this is reason enough to upgrade. Why? Cause ~50% of broadcast and streaming content is still 2.0, not to mention every youtube video. If they sound better with DSU then its a huge plus.

Allow me to be a little skeptical because I haven't heard this from anyone else. But its exciting.

I will be the first in line to say that I absolutely abhor Dolby ProLogic II or any other non-discrete matrix Surround DSP (including anything from DTS).

So I was extremely skeptical about the new DS and DTSNX that you get with these new ATMOS/DTSX AVR.

But then I watched some 2Ch AAC contents (Handmaid’s Tale, Castle Rock) in DS and DTSNX upmixers. Seriously I thought I was watching discrete 5.1. The Center Dialogue was so clear - actually even clearer than some discrete 5.1 movies I’ve seen!

It’s a shame that some discrete 5.1/7.1 movies can’t seem to get the Center dialogue level correct. A lot of movies have the Center Dialogue Volume way too low. But so far DS and DTSNX seem to be able to get the Center dialogue level correct even from just 2CH TV shows.

And the Surround speakers get their ambience just fine.

DS and DTSNX are very exciting.

 

[Danzilla31]

I will be the first in line to say that I absolutely abhor Dolby ProLogic II or any other non-discrete matrix Surround DSP (including anything from DTS).

So I was extremely skeptical about the new DS and DTSNX that you get with these new ATMOS/DTSX AVR.

But then I watched some 2Ch AAC contents (Handmaid’s Tale, Castle Rock) in DS and DTSNX upmixers. Seriously I thought I was watching discrete 5.1. The Center Dialogue was so clear - actually even clearer than some discrete 5.1 movies I’ve seen!

It’s a shame that some discrete 5.1/7.1 movies can’t seem to get the Center dialogue level correct. A lot of movies have the Center Dialogue Volume way too low. But so far DS and DTSNX seem to be able to get the Center dialogue level correct even from just 2CH TV shows.

And the Surround speakers get their ambience just fine.

DS and DTSNX are very exciting.

Just watched that freaky thriller Get Out. It didn't have an atmos mix so I got to enjoy the upmixes. It sounded great. Went back and forth with DTSNX. Both formats sounded great. Man at first I worried atmos was going to be a bunch of money for little return. But my system has never sounded so clear and good as it does now. I'm vert glad I made the jump. The upgrade with the avr and my speakers was totally worth it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ATMOS is a win-win for at least 3 reasons I can think of.

1. DS Up-mixer is awesome even if you don't have an ATMOS system
2. ATMOS overhead effects are awesome
3. ATMOS Blu-rays tend to get sound quality for both new and older movies - even if you don't have an ATMOS system. One example is how the older movies get REMASTERED with better sound - Underworld, Matrix Trilogy, Quick and the Dead, Punisher War Zone, among others.

 

[TechHDS]

Sorry I’m watching Tropic Thunder Blu-ray and not paying much attention because I’m laughing so hard at the movie.

Love that movie! It’s very funny!

Mike