Denon AVR-X3400H/X3500H/X4400H/X4500H Owners thread

[Ataraxia]

I'm running KEF speakers, Emotiva amps, and SVS subs. I still haven't played around with the crossovers yet per Peng's suggestion. There may be room for further improvement.

Mike

Hi. New KEF R3 and soon to be X4400H owner. I posted a synopsis above. What KEF's and SVS subs are you running? How does you system sound without the Emotivas?

 

[snakeeyes]

I'm following this thread too. I recently upgraded my speakers to KEF R3's for front L/R, and will soon close in on a sub to match, leaning towards Rythmik F12-300. Possible terminal setups being 2.1, 2.2, 3.1,or 3.2.

I'm currentlly using my old Yamaha RX V473 and am pleasantly surprised with it's performance with the R3's.

I considered quite a few options for AVR's and integrated amps but finally ordered the X4400H. It was a close call between that and Marantz 7012 but the X4400H seemed like a better value...Next I'm educating myself about whether or not an outboard 2 channel amp will help make the L/R front R3's really sing.

I'm hoping to get great sound for both music and movies, maybe 50/50 music/movies.

I have a 300w L12 in a bedroom and I know it wouldn’t make a great movie sub in a medium room. The F12-300 is likely to do only a little bit better with it’s nicer driver and same amp. Assuming you have a house and not a condo, and you are wanting the sub for movies and not just music, you should consider ported subs like the 400w Rythmik LVX12 or the 350w HSU VTF2. Otherwise if you need sealed you might want to look at the Rythmik L22 or E15 or the HSU ULS15. Good luck!

 

[Ataraxia]

I have a 300w L12 in a bedroom and I know it wouldn’t make a great movie sub in a medium room. The F12-300 is likely to do only a little bit better with it’s nicer driver and same amp. Assuming you have a house and not a condo, and you are wanting the sub for movies and not just music, you should consider ported subs like the 400w Rythmik LVX12 or the 350w HSU VTF2. Otherwise if you need sealed you might want to look at the Rythmik L22 or E15 or the HSU ULS15. Good luck!

Thanks for the input! Especially since you actually run Rythmiks...

Rythmik and HSU get such rave reviews they seem like the way to go...

I'll be in small to medium apartments or condos for the foreseeable future so should't go too big. I'm mainly looking to complement my 2 R3's for both music and movies... Not a THX amount of bass, but of course I want to impressed by it.

Your post actually saved me a ton of effort because I would have expected after looking at the Rythmik site the F12-300 would probably get me what I need... Plus I liked the aesthetics of the aluminum cone..

Hmmm... I guess I need to keep looking but I really want to get one (or 2) fast because my new AVR will be here soon.

 

[snakeeyes]

Thanks for the input! Especially since you actually run Rythmiks...

Rythmik and HSU get such rave reviews they seem like the way to go...

I'll be in small to medium apartments or condos for the foreseeable future so should't go too big. I'm mainly looking to complement my 2 R3's for both music and movies... Not a THX amount of bass, but of course I want to impressed by it.

Your post actually saved me a ton of effort because I would have expected after looking at the Rythmik site the F12-300 would probably get me what I need... Plus I liked the aesthetics of the aluminum cone..

Hmmm... I guess I need to keep looking but I really want to get one (or 2) fast because my new AVR will be here soon.

Well I have the L12 in my bedroom which is 1400 cubic feet in volume

I have a single LVX12 in my theater room which is 2600 cu ft. I may add a 2nd if I change from towers to bookshelves but not for output, just for evening out the bass a bit.

And I have two HSU VTF2’s in my living room which is open to the kitchen and dining so a total of 4700 cu ft.

So the size of the space really matters but also budget and what you can get away with in terms of the other people in the house. Aka WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor)

 

[Danzilla31]

HD has given you the correct click and select/press sequence, that is:
Click Setup on the remote to see the Setup menu
Select "Speakers" on the pop up menu to see the next pop up
Select "Manual Setup" to see the next pop up
Select "Speaker Config."
Now you can see that your front and center speakers were set to "Large"
Change them to "small"
Go to the crossover pop up menu and set them all to 80,90 or even 100 Hz to avoid/minimize clipping the XLS1002.

Audyssey did not set them to "large", it reports the findings to the processor, it is Denon's algorithm that determines the "large" and "small" thing. Audyssey sets the levels and generate the necessary EQ filters.

Hey PENG at break at work just wanted to follow up I dipped the volume a bit set the speakers to small. Made sure my crosovers were good and presto those amps are doing great. Green bars with no red on those crowns and it still sounds fantastic. I really really like those crown amps. And one cool feature on the Denon I like is when you adjust volume or do anything with the screen it has a bar that tells you what your power consumption is a green bar. I thought that was cool today when I ran it that bar never went over 50%. After a good listening session that denon was cooler then a cucumber. I was happy about that. I can't wait till this weekend so I can test out different modes and also 2 channel music streaming there's so much I haven't got to do with it yet I'm looking 4ward to it. Just a great avr I'm still buzzing over how good I feel about it best purchase I've made in awhile.

 

[PENG]

I'm following this thread too. I recently upgraded my speakers to KEF R3's for front L/R, and will soon close in on a sub to match, leaning towards Rythmik F12-300. Possible terminal setups being 2.1, 2.2, 3.1,or 3.2.

I'm currentlly using my old Yamaha RX V473 and am pleasantly surprised with it's performance with the R3's.

I considered quite a few options for AVR's and integrated amps but finally ordered the X4400H. It was a close call between that and Marantz 7012 but the X4400H seemed like a better value...Next I'm educating myself about whether or not an outboard 2 channel amp will help make the L/R front R3's really sing.

I'm hoping to get great sound for both music and movies, maybe 50/50 music/movies.

Depending on you sitting distance, the X4400H is probably enough for the R3. The thing is, if the RX-V473 can do it for you, then the X4400H can only do better as it is almost twice as powerful in 2 channel driven into 4 ohms and even more so in 5,7 channel driven situations.

If you sit more than 7-8 ft and wish to listen at reference level then you should add a 200/300 W 8/4 ohm power amp, but then you will be near the limit of the spl capability of the R3, that is 110 dB, and recommended amp power is only 15-180 watts. So practically speaking, the X4400H is actually a good match.

 

[PENG]

I'm following this thread too. I recently upgraded my speakers to KEF R3's for front L/R, and will soon close in on a sub to match, leaning towards Rythmik F12-300. Possible terminal setups being 2.1, 2.2, 3.1,or 3.2.

I'm currentlly using my old Yamaha RX V473 and am pleasantly surprised with it's performance with the R3's.

I considered quite a few options for AVR's and integrated amps but finally ordered the X4400H. It was a close call between that and Marantz 7012 but the X4400H seemed like a better value...Next I'm educating myself about whether or not an outboard 2 channel amp will help make the L/R front R3's really sing.

I'm hoping to get great sound for both music and movies, maybe 50/50 music/movies.

Can't go wrong with the Rythmik subs. I have a sealed one for my LS50s and love the sound of the combo.

 

[Ataraxia]

Depending on you sitting distance, the X4400H is probably enough for the R3. The thing is, if the RX-V473 can do it for you, then the X4400H can only do better as it is almost twice as powerful in 2 channel driven into 4 ohms and even more so in 5,7 channel driven situations.

If you sit more than 7-8 ft and wish to listen at reference level then you should add a 200/300 W 8/4 ohm power amp, but then you will be near the limit of the spl capability of the R3, that is 110 dB, and recommended amp power is only 15-180 watts. So practically speaking, the X4400H is actually a good match.

Sweet summary! Thank you! I have been working a ton trying to figure out how, most safely, get the most from these incredible R3's, with an outboard 2 channel amp.

I really really want to get the best sound from them, of course.

I will be in medium size apts. and condos for the near to long term. I currently sit about 12 feet from them. And the highest I've run them yet is -25db.

Reference level is 0db, correct?

So I guess I will see when I hook up the x4400... I appreciate the knowledge.

What you say makes sense... About matching the wattage with the R3 specs.. What is your opinion on the "Too much power?" explanation on this site??

https://www.d-sonic.com/

 

[PENG]

Reference level is 0db, correct?

Yes, but only after you run auto setup/Audyssey. After that, at volume 0, you should get reference level when playing back media recorded/mastered to follow the THX standard. If not, all bets are off. For example, some contents on Y-tube will get you reference level well before volume 0, even at -10, so be careful or you'll blow you lovely R3s !!

What you say makes sense... About matching the wattage with the R3 specs.. What is your opinion on the "Too much power?" explanation on this site??

In my opinion, too much power is a relative term. For example, a 300 W/8 ohm, 400 W/4 ohm amp can be perfect for our R3s, but in the wrong hands, it can be too much power for them too, whereas a 30 W/8 ohm, 20 W/4 ohm weak amp is not too much power for sure, because it is not capable of blowing the R3 even if in the wrong hands. A weaker, but not too weak amp rated 100 W/150W 8 ohm/4 ohm in the wrong hands can also damage the R3's tweeters. That's just two examples, there are infinite permutations for a specific amp to over drive a specific speaker resulting in damages.

 

[Hobbit]

HD has given you the correct click and select/press sequence, that is:
Click Setup on the remote to see the Setup menu
Select "Speakers" on the pop up menu to see the next pop up
Select "Manual Setup" to see the next pop up
Select "Speaker Config."
Now you can see that your front and center speakers were set to "Large"
Change them to "small"
Go to the crossover pop up menu and set them all to 80,90 or even 100 Hz to avoid/minimize clipping the XLS1002.

Audyssey did not set them to "large", it reports the findings to the processor, it is Denon's algorithm that determines the "large" and "small" thing. Audyssey sets the levels and generate the necessary EQ filters.

Finally got to looking at these settings last night.... Still didn't have time to play with the settings. The setup, following the Denon on screen using Audyssey, is:

Speakers: Small (all)
Crossover: Front/Center: 40Hz, Surrounds/100Hz
Subwoofer Mode: LFE
LPF for LFE: 120Hz

Where to go from here? Just tweak the front/center crossover? Forty seems low. Shoot for 60-90Hz?

Manual says try LFE and LFE+Main with music playing. It's not clear whether this matters when the speakers set to small?

Anything else to try? Am I missing an important setting? I'm surprised Fronts/Center are set small with a crossover at 40Hz.

Curios if anyone has tried the "Restorer" setting? I have it set off.

 

[PENG]

Finally got to looking at these settings last night.... Still didn't have time to play with the settings. The setup, following the Denon on screen using Audyssey, is:

Speakers: Small (all)
Crossover: Front/Center: 40Hz, Surrounds/100Hz
Subwoofer Mode: LFE
LPF for LFE: 120Hz

Where to go from here? Just tweak the front/center crossover? Forty seems low. Shoot for 60-90Hz?

Manual says try LFE and LFE+Main with music playing. It's not clear whether this matters when the speakers set to small?

Anything else to try? Am I missing an important setting? I'm surprised Fronts/Center are set small with a crossover at 40Hz.

Curios if anyone has tried the "Restorer" setting? I have it set off.

All look good except the Front/Center crossover. Change them to 80 or 90 Hz and you will likely get flatter, that is, more accurate bass response. If you feel like you need more bass, simply increase the subwoofer levels (not at the sub, but on the AVR only) by 3 to 6 dB and go from there. What are you front, center speakers again?

 

[Hobbit]

All look good except the Front/Center crossover. Change them to 80 or 90 Hz and you will likely get flatter, that is, more accurate bass response. If you feel like you need more bass, simply increase the subwoofer levels (not at the sub, but on the AVR only) by 3 to 6 dB and go from there. What are you front, center speakers again?

I have KEF Q900 front and Q600 center, and dual PB1000 subs. Driving the fronts is an Emo XPA-3.

 

[PENG]

I have KEF Q900 front and Q600 center, and dual PB1000 subs. Driving the fronts is an Emo XPA-3.

With those big KEFs, definitely try XO 80 on the mains and 90 Hz for the center. The Q900 and Q600 have strong output down to 40 Hz or lower in room so they will cancel/boost the dual PB1000 especially if the room is not too big. I am guessing your room is small to medium otherwise you would have opted for dual PB2000s.

Audyssey doesn't set crossover points and Denon/Marantz typically set XO as low, as possible, even full band for whatever reasons. Contrary to popular beliefs, tower speakers with good bass response are more prone to messing up the bass, along with the subwoofers.

 

[Hobbit]

With those big KEFs, definitely try XO 80 on the mains and 90 Hz for the center. The Q900 and Q600 have strong output down to 40 Hz or lower in room so they will cancel/boost the dual PB1000 especially if the room is not too big. I am guessing your room is small to medium otherwise you would have opted for dual PB2000s.

Audyssey doesn't set crossover points and Denon/Marantz typically set XO as high as possible for whatever reasons. Contrary to popular beliefs, tower speakers with good bass response are more prone to messing up the bass, along with the subwoofers.

Interesting, I would assume Audyssey would set the crossover points. Either directly, or indirectly by suggesting a range. I assume you meant the xo as low (low freq) as possible? In my case it chose 40hz.

It actually makes sense that a speaker with good bass response along with a subwoofer would be more confusing to the setup. It confuses me thinking about it. In my head I kind of want to take advantage of the towers... then again, not.

The room, the den, is medium to small. SVS actually recommended the dual 1k's for my purpose. Which surprised me!

 

[PENG]

Interesting, I would assume Audyssey would set the crossover points. Either directly, or indirectly by suggesting a range. I assume you meant the xo as low (low freq) as possible? In my case it chose 40hz.

It actually makes sense that a speaker with good bass response along with a subwoofer would be more confusing to the setup. It confuses me thinking about it. In my head I kind of want to take advantage of the towers... then again, not.

The room, the den, is medium to small. SVS actually recommended the dual 1k's for my purpose. Which surprised me!

Yes, I meant as low as possible. Thanks for letting me know so I can fix it. Someone (@lovinthehd iirc) suggested that they want their customers to feel good about their speakers, and not insulted for them being small.. Have you seen the graphs I posted, for 60 Hz vs 80 Hz? You would have seen the big suck out/valley in the 60 Hz scenario.

 

[PENG]

Interesting, I would assume Audyssey would set the crossover points. Either directly, or indirectly by suggesting a range. I assume you meant the xo as low (low freq) as possible? In my case it chose 40hz.

You are not the only one, I bet more people do!

Below is right from Dr. Chris Kyriakakis:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212345023-Crossover-frequency

Audyssey Labs

February 04, 2010 21:23

Audyssey doesn't set crossovers in any product. It finds the low frequency roll off point of your speakers and reports that to the AVR. Every manufacturer uses that information differently. In your product, speakers found to roll off below 40 Hz are set by Onkyo to Full Range (i.e. with no crossover to the sub). That means that bass will not be redirected to the sub. Audyssey recommends that if you have a sub you should set crossovers for all your speakers. I would suggest starting with 80 Hz. I wrote much more on this topic here:

IMO, the more complicated REQ system such as Audyssey, Anthem ARC, Dirac,, Trinnov etc., are not for everyone, especially bass heads who happens to have strong room gains in the right place and couldn't stand their bass being brutally levelled. The fact is, like many features riched AVRs, you have to really read, understand and follow instructions in order to benefit from the products.

Ever wonder why there are so many "refurbished" units being sold online and now even in certain stores? I bet lots of them were returned as defective by owners, but checked out fine because they were only perceived as defective by owners who didn't know how to use them. Same thing for Audyssey, probably lots of people hated it just because...............

 

[Hobbit]

Yes, I meant as low as possible. Thanks for letting me know so I can fix it. Someone (@lovinthehd iirc) suggested that they want their customers to feel good about their speakers, and not insulted for them being small.. Have you seen the graphs I posted, for 60 Hz vs 80 Hz? You would have seen the big suck out/valley in the 60 Hz scenario.

I haven't seen the graphs. Can you point me to them? Thanks!

I actually called about buying a pair pb2000s or 1 4k and got talked into a pair of 1k's for my room. I like the bass to be seamless with the music.

I think the automated REQ is a godsend. I hated trying to use an SPL and seemingly forever adjusting things...

 

[PENG]

I haven't seen the graphs. Can you point me to them? Thanks!

SVS people are quite honest and won't talk people into buy more than need. It is quicker for me to just post the graphs than to find them. You can see that as the XO is lowered, the valley in the range 40-70 Hz gets progressively worse.

You can also see that in my room with my gear, any heavy bass-holics would turn Audyssey off.

 

[PENG]

Would be great if we can share our Audyssey settings, so we can all see how they compare with others!

Screen shots of my Audyssey settings:
Note: I changed all speakers to small, XO to 80/90/60/40

 

[Hobbit]

Would be great if we can share our Audyssey settings, so we can all see how they compare with others!

Screen shots of my Audyssey settings:
Note: I changed all speakers to small, XO to 80/90/60/40

View attachment 26304View attachment 26305

Interesting, I'll take a look at mine tonight. Another confusion is what does large/small really mean? After our discussion yesterday it doesn't seem to mean much. Even more so if you go in manually set crossovers.

I did start changing my crossover setting yesterday. However, I didn't get enough time to compare it to the original settings. Been burning the candle at both ends lately...