Denon AVR-X3400H/X3500H/X4400H/X4500H Owners thread

[PENG]

The DenonX3000/4000/6000H series seem to be gaining popularity on this forum, so I thought it may be good to have a dedicated thread for questions, issues, and answers.

So, let me ask the first question. Are there any owners of the now $599 AVR-X3400H (since the X3500H's out) who don't find it sounding better than the one it replaced, all else being equal, i.e. no sound processing, same speakers same room same level etc.? To me, that thing for some reasons, seemed to sound a little better (sweeter, to be exact..),full disclosure: I hate that term when reviewers used it..) than any of my gear including separates that cost 5X the Denon's list price at launch. I really don't believe that is possible, so like @Hobbit alluded to, probably just "all in my head".

This is one AVR that could potentially be the best neutral sounding <$1,000 two channel "integrated" amp that money can buy, with or without Audyssey "On".

 

[PENG]

Before someone say something, another disclosure: I did buy into the the Infinity Primus P360/362/363 hypes a few years ago. No shame either as even JA did if I remember right. So I believe I am able to immune myself to hearsay a little more since..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've owned 4 of the Denon 3000-series in the past. I paid about $500-$600 on sale each time.

The SALE prices on Amazon and other sites make these AVR very tempting.

 

[Danzilla31]

Man PENG I'm so glad you put up this thread I just set up the 4400H and wow I'm impressed but I have a few technical things I could use advice on. Nothing major also I'd like to point out the positives and cons if I may over time in this thread. I really wish I had any input for you on your question on the 3000 series but this is my first one. I'm really glad you put this thread up. I'll be able to learn from you guys sometimes without posting a ton of stuff on multiple threads hopefully questions will be answered before I need to ask.

 

[Danzilla31]

My technical questions are I'll just post them one at a time. I just have 2.
I'll start with power amps. I'm running 2 crown xls 2 pro amps the 1002's ones driving the fronts the other the center. An emotiva UPA-7 driving the surrounds surrounds backs and the rear ceiling heights. The denon is only driving the front ceilings. I'm impressed with the sound. Very impressed. To get to the point I set the gain on the crowns to 100% the voltage to 1.4 to start. This was the recommendation to start by Crown and fellas on this site. I noticed in testing the Mummy and Blade Runner 2049. On the meter lights I noticed on the crowns in high dynamic passages such as the plane crash in the Mummy or the opening scene in Blade runner. Also bass heavy passages. The lights would rise to briefly hit the red. They never went to 2 bars which is clipping and they never stayed for long. But one bar according to the manual is thermal compression. My question is should they ever need to hit the red ever even for brief moments like a second. Also they're normal setting is 1.4 on voltage required to drive them to they're fullest. My denon manual says 1.2 on its preouts voltage. The Crowns have a switch to raise the sensitivity to just .7 to drive them. Should I run them on that switch? My concern is I'm not hurting for volume they don't feel like man I'm not getting enough out of these. The volume and clarity and dynamics are all there and I'm afraid if I raise they're input sensitivity I will clip them. So to wrap this up what are my options? Should I tweak the gain on the crowns turn it down a bit. Change the in put switch from 1.4 to .7 to see if that helps? Are the 1.2 specs from Denon meaning it just can't drive them correctly. Should I just lower the volume. I'm guilty of driving my stuff to reference that's just the way I am. I'm using the volume scale of 0 to 98 and I have it at 88 which is where I like the sound but is that overdoing it?
I'm driving 4 SVS prime towers for the front 3 4 Elan Theaterpoint 650LS for surrounds and 4 RSL C34E's for my ceilings front and back heights. And dual PB 4000's for subs. If I need to move this to the amp thread I apologize and will do so any feedback is appreciated.

 

[Danzilla31]

My second technical question is I've never had so much bass out of those prime towers. Even at 80 Hz cutoff I can see those drivers working. I've tried both things in bass management LFE + mains and LFE only it was my understanding that LFE plus mains sent bass to your towers plus the subs LFE only doesn't. Yet if I set it to LFE only and go to the crossover menu the crossovers audyssey set for the center and mains is faded and I can't access it and it says full band. I can only adjust the crossovers on the front 3 if I have it on LFE + mains. Am I doing wrong because both settings feel like I'm driving the crap out of those SVS woofers. You can see why I started with power amps. I may just be overdriving the crap out of them. Just pushing them to RMS max all the time. Too much of the time. That's it any feedback on these two questions would be appreciated. I would love to go over all the great impressions I got and I have so many this is one awesome AVR. But I've hijacked this thread enough and will just chime on the good stuff later. Thanks for your time guys

 

[lovinthehd]

My second technical question is I've never had so much bass out of those prime towers. Even at 80 Hz cutoff I can see those drivers working. I've tried both things in bass management LFE + mains and LFE only it was my understanding that LFE plus mains sent bass to your towers plus the subs LFE only doesn't. Yet if I set it to LFE only and go to the crossover menu the crossovers audyssey set for the center and mains is faded and I can't access it and it says full band. I can only adjust the crossovers on the front 3 if I have it on LFE + mains. Am I doing wrong because both settings feel like I'm driving the crap out of those SVS woofers. You can see why I started with power amps. I may just be overdriving the crap out of them. Just pushing them to RMS max all the time. Too much of the time. That's it any feedback on these two questions would be appreciated. I would love to go over all the great impressions I got and I have so many this is one awesome AVR. But I've hijacked this thread enough and will just chime on the good stuff later. Thanks for your time guys

As far as being able to use the LFE and crossovers, go to speakers-manual setup-speaker config and change them to small, this will allow you to use the crossovers (or change them, fine to raise the crossover level post-Audyssey but generally not advised to lower them from suggested).

 

[PENG]

On the meter lights I noticed on the crowns in high dynamic passages such as the plane crash in the Mummy or the opening scene in Blade runner. Also bass heavy passages. The lights would rise to briefly hit the red. They never went to 2 bars which is clipping and they never stayed for long. But one bar according to the manual is thermal compression

I think you are safe, but you obviously are hitting the limit of the Crown amps, so you really should turn the volume on the Denon down by a couple of dB and you should not lit those lights. The sensitivity of the Crown amp should actually be a good match for the Denon/Marantz AVRs.

My question is should they ever need to hit the red ever even for brief moments like a second. Also they're normal setting is 1.4 on voltage required to drive them to they're fullest. My denon manual says 1.2 on its preouts voltage. The Crowns have a switch to raise the sensitivity to just .7 to drive them. Should I run them on that switch? My concern is I'm not hurting for volume they don't feel like man I'm not getting enough out of these. The volume and clarity and dynamics are all there and I'm afraid if I raise they're input sensitivity I will clip them.

You've got that right, if you raise the Crown's input sensitivity to 0.7, you will over drive the Crowns and if your hearing is good you will hear the distortions from clipping. Don't do it!!

So to wrap this up what are my options? Should I tweak the gain on the crowns turn it down a bit. Change the in put switch from 1.4 to .7 to see if that helps?

You have two/three (1&3 related) options:
1. Turn it down from 88 to 80, and you should still be at THX reference level, and that would be roughly as loud as what you hear sitting in a movie cinema especially one that is set to THX standard.
2. Get a bigger amp for the SVS towers and center, such as the XLS1502, XPA-3.
3. Sit 2-3 ft closer and lower the volume to 80.

Note: In any case, try setting the Crossover for the SVS towers and center to 90 Hz, and the other speakers to 100 Hz. Let the extremely capable PB4000 take more load off the Crown and UPA amps.

Are the 1.2 specs from Denon meaning it just can't drive them correctly

No one knows exactly what that 1.2 V is based on, it could be a continuous rating at a specific THD and impedance load. May be some day @gene can find out exactly what Denon's bench test/specs protocol is if he can reach the right person. As far as I know, they don't let ordinary people like me talk pass their customer support reps. From Gene's review on the AVR-X3300W, that has identical preamp/amp section as the AVR-X3400H/X3500H, the pre-out voltages had no trouble exceeding 2 V unclipped!

In that review, he said:

One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power. Yamaha please pay attention and step your game up particularly with your AV receivers in this price range that clip above 1.6Vrms. A preamp output of less than 2Vrms is unacceptable in my book.

Should I just lower the volume. I'm guilty of driving my stuff to reference that's just the way I am. I'm using the volume scale of 0 to 98 and I have it at 88 which is where I like the sound but is that overdoing it?
I'm driving 4 SVS prime towers for the front 3 4 Elan Theaterpoint 650LS for surrounds and 4 for my ceilings front and back heights. And dual PB 4000's for subs.

With those speakers (sensitivity 87 dB/2.83V/1m, recommended amp power 20-250 W),you better option is 1) or 3) I listed above. That is, turn down the volume and sit closer if you could. Your spl requirements is just a little too much for them in a large room. The SVS Ultra towers would have been better, though still not by much. I may be too conservative, so if you want more accurate/realistic answer, give SVS a call. Ed, their VP, is a very helpful person, so email him or try to get him on the phone about your situation.

If I need to move this to the amp thread I apologize and will do so any feedback is appreciated.

I think it may be better for it to stay in this thread because I suspect many mid range AVR users do use external amps anyway.

 

[Danzilla31]

As far as being able to use the LFE and crossovers, go to speakers-manual setup-speaker config and change them to small, this will allow you to use the crossovers (or change them, fine to raise the crossover level post-Audyssey but generally not advised to lower them from suggested).

I can't seem to find that on the config menu I can change the crossovers if I select LFE + Main but not when I select LFE. With LFE only the towers and center are not accessible and they are listed as full band. I must be missing something here I'll get back in here this morning and try to do what you are suggesting

 

[Danzilla31]

Thanks PENG okay I'm going to try 1 3 is an issue if I move the couches any further up I block the fireplace and part of the walkway and I'm out of position for Atmos on my ceiling speakers. But option 3 is a good one I need to save my hearing anyway. I'm only partly kidding with that. Plus I didn't experiment too much.with volume I put it up too where it felt good and that was it. What I mean by that is I haven't run the subs hot from where Audyssey set them etc etc I will also try the 90 Hz crossovers see how that works out thanks!

 

[PENG]

I can't seem to find that on the config menu I can change the crossovers if I select LFE + Main but not when I select LFE. With LFE only the towers and center are not accessible and they are listed as full band. I must be missing something here I'll get back in here this morning and try to do what you are suggesting

HD has given you the correct click and select/press sequence, that is:
Click Setup on the remote to see the Setup menu
Select "Speakers" on the pop up menu to see the next pop up
Select "Manual Setup" to see the next pop up
Select "Speaker Config."
Now you can see that your front and center speakers were set to "Large"
Change them to "small"
Go to the crossover pop up menu and set them all to 80,90 or even 100 Hz to avoid/minimize clipping the XLS1002.

Audyssey did not set them to "large", it reports the findings to the processor, it is Denon's algorithm that determines the "large" and "small" thing. Audyssey sets the levels and generate the necessary EQ filters.

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG okay I'm going to try 1 3 is an issue if I move the couches any further up I block the fireplace and part of the walkway and I'm out of position for Atmos on my ceiling speakers. But option 3 is a good one I need to save my hearing anyway. I'm only partly kidding with that. Plus I didn't experiment too much.with volume I put it up too where it felt good and that was it. What I mean by that is I haven't run the subs hot from where Audyssey set them etc etc I will also try the 90 Hz crossovers see how that works out thanks!

If you set them below 80 Hz you will likely get much more bass cancellation, and that means wasting some of the gigantic PB4000's output. You really should set the surrounds and ceiling ones to 100 Hz or 120 Hz, for the way you are driving them, they are endangered species in your set up.

 

[Danzilla31]

I think you are safe, but you obviously are hitting the limit of the Crown amps, so you really should turn the volume on the Denon down by a couple of dB and you should not lit those lights. The sensitivity of the Crown amp should actually be a good match for the Denon/Marantz AVRs.



You've got that right, if you raise the Crown's input sensitivity to 0.7, you will over drive the Crowns and if your hearing is good you will hear the distortions from clipping. Don't do it!!



You have two/three (1&3 related) options:
1. Turn it down from 88 to 80, and you should still be at THX reference level, and that would be roughly as loud as what you hear sitting in a movie cinema especially one that is set to THX standard.
2. Get a bigger amp for the SVS towers and center, such as the XLS1502, XPA-3.
3. Sit 2-3 ft closer and lower the volume to 80.

Note: In any case, try setting the Crossover for the SVS towers and center to 90 Hz, and the other speakers to 100 Hz. Let the extremely capable PB4000 take more load off the Crown and UPA amps.



No one knows exactly what that 1.2 V is based on, it could be a continuous rating at a specific THD and impedance load. May be some day @gene can find out exactly what Denon's bench test/specs protocol is if he can reach the right person. As far as I know, they don't let ordinary people like me talk pass their customer support reps. From Gene's review on the AVR-X3300W, that has identical preamp/amp section as the AVR-X3400H/X3500H, the pre-out voltages had no trouble exceeding 2 V unclipped!

In that review, he said:





With those speakers (sensitivity 87 dB/2.83V/1m, recommended amp power 20-250 W),you better option is 1) or 3) I listed above. That is, turn down the volume and sit closer if you could. Your spl requirements is just a little too much for them in a large room. The SVS Ultra towers would have been better, though still not by much. I may be too conservative, so if you want more accurate/realistic answer, give SVS a call. Ed, their VP, is a very helpful person, so email him or try to get him on the phone about your situation.



I think it may be better for it to stay in this thread because I suspect many mid range AVR users do use external amps anyway.

If I may I'd like to list some positives. I can see why this av recievers are getting so popular. This is already one of my favorite recievers I've ever owned. Hands down.
1 the sound is great really impressed me yesterday with Dolby Atmos. There is a lean towards warmth on Denon and Marantz sound I can't find on other recievers. That could be in my head tho
2 that menu so far is so easy to navigate. After Audyssey set up I got very comfortable in there very quick Wi-Fi bluetooth was a breeze getting around features and adding things was also a breeze
3 Audyssey was amazing on this it really nailed my room except for crossovers which it set up way too low on the towers and center I mean it nailed it. The sound was great. What shocked me was how well it nailed the subs.
4 going off of 3 those subs sound so good and it set them at -8 on the left one -7 on the right one and I have the subs volume at -15 where I was at on calibration. And they sound better then the -4 on the onkyo -10 on the subs. I'm loath to run it 2 or 3 she hotter like I usually do. But I think you called it out one day PENG. I love my main and subs being tight and accurate on the bass and well integrated. I hate boomy bass overpowering bass.
5 All the amps are excellent but those crowns your right PENG the pair super well with that avr the sound is so clear even at high volumes yet natural. I wanted to try out the 1002 to see if I like them well I plan now to order 2 1502 down the road and I should be very happy with that for a long time to come
I don't want to go on too long this is just an excellent avr I look forward to thoroughly exploring it and all the listening modes. I'm very happy with my choice very happy. This will be my avr for my main room for years to come

 

[Danzilla31]

HD has given you the correct click and select/press sequence, that is:
Click Setup on the remote to see the Setup menu
Select "Speakers" on the pop up menu to see the next pop up
Select "Manual Setup" to see the next pop up
Select "Speaker Config."
Now you can see that your front and center speakers were set to "Large"
Change them to "small"
Go to the crossover pop up menu and set them all to 80,90 or even 100 Hz to avoid/minimize clipping the XLS1002.

Audyssey did not set them to "large", it reports the findings to the processor, it is Denon's algorithm that determines the "large" and "small" thing. Audyssey sets the levels and generate the necessary EQ filters.

Ok thank you HD and PENG for your help I have the ceilings at 100 Hz that's where Audyssey put them so I think they'll be safe. The small setting should help it obviously has those towers at large I can tell by the way theyre being driven. I'll fix that today. Appreciate the help

 

[Danzilla31]

If you set them below 80 Hz you will likely get much more bass cancellation, and that means wasting some of the gigantic PB4000's output. You really should set the surrounds and ceiling ones to 100 Hz or 120 Hz, for the way you are driving them, they are endangered species in your set up.

One cool thing is I'm using 6 channels on the Emotiva and 3 on the crowns I ran some pretty demanding passages on there. Those amps barely got warm actually the crowns not at all even the Emotiva barely got warm and the Emotiva got warm on my onkyo just driving 3 channels. I put those fans on top of the avr and it's barely warm considering they can run warm according to others I'm very very happy about that. It should last for a long time

 

[PENG]

l I plan now to order 2 1502 down the road and I should be very happy with that for a long time to come

One cool thing is I'm using 6 channels on the Emotiva and 3 on the crowns I ran some pretty demanding passages on there. Those amps barely got warm actually the crowns not at all even the Emotiva barely got warm and the Emotiva got warm on my onkyo just driving 3 channels. I put those fans on top of the avr and it's barely warm considering they can run warm according to others I'm very very happy about that. It should last for a long time

HD seems to like his 1500 a lot, the 1502 is newer. It has lower noise floor than the 1002, and more powerful, obviously. Whatever you end up with, may I suggest that you amp all channels, you can add one M2200 if you end up just missing one channel. That way, you can turn ECO mode on full time like I do, without losing performance. In Eco mode, the AVR does run cooler, could be as much as 10 deg according to jdsmoothie https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2089586-denon-s-eco-mode-what-does-do-exactly.html (post#3) He didn't specified the scale, but surely that must be Fahrenheit.

I am not worried about your amps running warm as one is class D and the other class H (iirc) with switching mode power supply. It is the class AB Denon that can use some help.

For electronic devices, running cooler typically means living longer..

 

[Danzilla31]

If you set them below 80 Hz you will likely get much more bass cancellation, and that means wasting some of the gigantic PB4000's output. You really should set the surrounds and ceiling ones to 100 Hz or 120 Hz, for the way you are driving them, they are endangered species in your set up.

One last thing to you PENG I think your spot on with the SPL's observation that room is just so gosh darn big to drive but we work with what we got. Next year I believe my feelings on the upgrade are right Get the 3 SVS ultra towers for the front and use the prime towers plus buy 1 more for my surrounds. Plus like we said move up to the 1502 on the crowns. But I will have no problems with the setup as is for now once I make the changes you guys have recommended.

 

[Danzilla31]

HD seems to like his 1500 a lot, the 1502 is newer. It has lower noise floor than the 1002, and more powerful, obviously. Whatever you end up with, may I suggest that you amp the center channel too, with one M2200 if you end up just missing one channel. That way, you can turn ECO mode on full time like I do, without losing performance. In Eco mode, the AVR does run cooler, could be as much as 10 deg according to jdsmoothie https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2089586-denon-s-eco-mode-what-does-do-exactly.html (post#3) He didn't specified the scale, but surely that must be Fahrenheit.

I am not worried about your amps running warm as one is class D and the other class H (iirc) with switching mode power supply. It is the class AB Denon that can use some help.

For electronic devices, running cooler typically means living longer..

Yeah down the road I plan on getting one more amp for the center channel so I can use the Denon basically as a pre pro and just keep it in eco mode. I love this avr and want it too last. I'd do it now but holidays and taxes coming up I hit my limit this year.

 

[PENG]

Yeah down the road I plan on getting one more amp for the center channel so I can use the Denon basically as a pre pro and just keep it in eco mode. I love this avr and want it too last. I'd do it now but holidays and taxes coming up I hit my limit this year.

Thanks, that's what I meant, that you need to cover all 11 channels in order to use Eco without affecting performance. I edited my post accordingly.

 

[TechHDS]

Man PENG I'm so glad you put up this thread I just set up the 4400H and wow I'm impressed but I have a few technical things I could use advice on. Nothing major also I'd like to point out the positives and cons if I may over time in this thread. I really wish I had any input for you on your question on the 3000 series but this is my first one. I'm really glad you put this thread up. I'll be able to learn from you guys sometimes without posting a ton of stuff on multiple threads hopefully questions will be answered before I need to ask.

Yep! Very much needed this Thread! Thxs PENG!!

Mike