HELP MARANTZ SR6004 no bass

[singhcr]

Just deleted post, after I caught it. Unless the room has changed, sub position, etc I'm not sure because the marantz has plenty of voltage to drive the sub. Audyessey can be tricky to get right. I'd just focus the setup again as that's your likely culprit. Did you download the Audyessey editor app?

No worries.

I just ran the setup again a few days ago to no avail. I have disabled Audyssey as it has been nothing but trouble for me. I am running the AVR in Direct mode. I tried the editor app a few months ago and ran Audyssey calibration via the app but that did nothing either. I even tried editing the sub EQ curve in Audyssey using the app to try and add more mid bass back, but that didn't help and frankly I shouldn't have to resort to such trickery to get this sounding right anyway.

 

[everettT]

In direct it should sound the same. Give audyssey another try. Are you sure the subs woofer is moving in direct mode? Maybe @PENG can confirm if the sub gets a signal in direct mode.

 

[singhcr]

It is moving as I can definately sense it (it still rattles the doors in the room) but it just doesn't have the mid bass that lets you feel explosions and such.

I hope to try hooking up my old AVR again and doing another A/B test as it's been a good 6 months since I did it last.

I agree, it should sound the same in direct.

When I wrote Marantz tech support last year, this is what they said.

In regards to your question about the subwoofer output with your SR6011 versus lower end models... There shouldn't be any difference as the Subwoofer ports are both pre-outs, just passing signal. If we want more output from our subwoofer I recommend setting our front speakers to small. Also, changing subwoofer mode to LFE+MAIN.

 

[everettT]

Make sure you level match each unit before listening and have someone else switch the units so you dont know which one your listening to.

 

[KEW]

I have a HSU VTF-15H and it's a beast. With my old JVC RX series AVR from 2002 or so, at a Q setting of 0.5, crossover at 80 Hz, EQ=1 with one port open and a volume of 40%,...

Did your old JVC have bass management, or just send out a full-range monophonic signal to the sub? I tried looking it up, but it seems the RX series is pretty much every receiver they made.

I ask because if you are not familiar with a modern AVR, you might not know to set the crossover switch on your sub to "out" or "by-pass" or (if no bypass switch) turn the crossover to the maximum value. I am hoping your problem (which is an easy fix) is that the crossover on the sub is acting in tandem with the AVR's crossover. The AVR's crossover is designed to manage both your speakers and your sub and if you keep the sub crossover (which is a low pass filter for the subwoofer) set at 80Hz, both the sub and the AVR will apply a low pass filter.
Below is how a crossover should work. If you have the situation I am imagining, the rolloff of the sub that starts at 30Hz will be applied twice and instead of a gradual rolloff, you will get a steep one resulting in a noticeable suck out between 50 and 120Hz.

 

[singhcr]

First off, everyone, thank you very much for the help so far.

KEW, I looked and I have a RX-6032V AVR.

Here is what the manual says about the LFE crossover on page 16 (http://resources.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/97/22026ien.pdf)

FYI, I did not have the LFE ATTENUATE feature engaged. I did not make all of the speakers large when using the JVC so the CROSS OFF light never appeared. To me, the JVC seems to perform the same function as the Marantz does: for multichannel content, the subwoofer was sent the LFE channel plus the content of any channel that wasn't set to large that was 80Hz or below. The crossover on the subwoofer was engaged and set to 90 Hz so all was well, right?

My sub has its own crossover that is set to its maximum and is engaged (90 Hz according to the manual) but I do have the option of bypassing it. It is set to "in" currently.

I always thought that as long as the sub's own crossover was at or higher than that of the AVR, it would have no impact. I had the sub's crossover on while using both the JVC and Marantz AVRs. I've never turned it off because until your suggestion today I've never felt that I had the need to.

Thank you for the graph, that's quite helpful. I will try turning the sub's crossover off when I get home after work.

 

[KEW]

Yeah, turn the crossover off at your subwoofer. As you can see from the graph even though it is set at 80, it takes effect down around 30. Since yours is at 90 figure it will start taking effect around 40. That definitely includes the area where you get the punch of the bass.
The rule about saying the crossover on the subwoofer higher than the crossover generally is referring to turning it all the way up to 160 Hertz or whatever the highest setting is. That way it is well clear of the actual area where the AVR is performing the crossover.
Hopefully that will resolve your issue!

 

[PENG]

I have. They are all set to small, LFE set to LFE+Main and a crossover of 80 Hz.

Considering that I never used small speakers with my old amp, this just confuses me all the more.

Try setting the mains to large and subwoofer to no/none and tell us how it sounds with Audyssey on and then off, and volume at near 0, say -10. Try that with both DEQ on and off.

We can continue to troubleshoot after that.

There is likely nothing wrong with the Marantz if you have already replaced the first one. As KEW suggested, set the sub xo to off, though I understood you had it ON with the JVC.

 

[PENG]

In direct it should sound the same. Give audyssey another try. Are you sure the subs woofer is moving in direct mode? Maybe @PENG can confirm if the sub gets a signal in direct mode.

Yes for multi-channel. For two channel, it will be on only if subwoofer mode it set to LFE+Main.

 

[singhcr]

I got home and disabled the subwoofer's crossover and BAM the mid was back. The LFE+Main is too boomy for my tastes so I just have it set to LFE. Now time to see what Audyssey actually does to my sub!

Thank you all very much, especially KEW for the help. Having a proper sub is like night and day and makes me tremendously happy.

 

[PENG]

I got home and disabled the subwoofer's crossover and BAM the mid was back. The LFE+Main is too boomy for my tastes so I just have it set to LFE. Now time to see what Audyssey actually does to my sub!

Thank you all very much, especially KEW for the help. Having a proper sub is like night and day and makes me tremendously happy.

So you are getting mid bass cancellation between the sub and the mains before, but not totally explain why it didn't bother you when you were using the JVC. I could take a guess though..

What kind of mains do you have anyway, I am curious to know their mid to low bass response.

 

[singhcr]

There was no mid bass cancellation with the JVC, or if there was it was very subtle. This cancellation with the Marantz was obvious.

I use Klipsch Hersey speakers for my mains.

 

[KEW]

So you are getting mid bass cancellation between the sub and the mains before, but not totally explain why it didn't bother you when you were using the JVC. I could take a guess though..

What kind of mains do you have anyway, I am curious to know their mid to low bass response.

I mat be wrong, but I had the impression that the JVC did not have bass management and only output full range to sub.

 

[singhcr]

That's where I am confused too. There is clearly a crossover on the AVR and changing it did impact the sound, yet I didn't have this mid bass cancellation that I did with my Marantz. Given that the subwoofer is the same between the two setups the only conclusion is that the LPF on the JVC is much more different than what the Marantz was doing.

 

[PENG]

That's where I am confused too. There is clearly a crossover on the AVR and changing it did impact the sound, yet I didn't have this mid bass cancellation that I did with my Marantz. Given that the subwoofer is the same between the two setups the only conclusion is that the LPF on the JVC is much more different than what the Marantz was doing.

I read the manual you linked and you are right about the existence of crossover settings. Assuming you compare the JVC with the Marantz using the same 80 Hz setting, there are still other factors involved, such as:

1. On the JVC side, did you have the tone control, and or bass boost on?
2. Did you level match the JVC, all channels including the subwoofer/LFE channel?
3. Did you level match the two AVR, using a SPL meter?

If the answers to the above are 1) No, 2&3) Yes, then the only variables left are the slopes of the crossovers between the two units and the difference in frequency responses. So the overall effects could be that the JVC would roll off faster thereby resulting in lesser chance of cancellation.

The JVC does not have the LPF for LFE setting. The LPF for the SR6012 affects the LFE channel only so that setting should not contribute to the differences you are hearing unless you are listening the contents that have the LFE channel.

 

[singhcr]

1. There was no bass boost on, although I believe I had the tone control on for a bit of extra bass.
2. No, I didn't. I initially set it by ear while watching movies to my own preference.
3. Nope.

This was more of a subjective test. I set each to what I'd normally listen to movies at in the same room. It's close enough for what I was after to see if there was really something wrong with the LFE channel because I noticed this almost immediately when watching the same films I always do as reference material for what my sub should sound like.

As for the LPF, the JVC should set everything to 80 Hz. It's a global setting. One of the first things I did on the Marantz to try and fix my issue was to use a global LPF of 80 Hz like the JVC had, as Audyssey initially had very different settings for the mains, center, surrounds, etc.

Now that I know the issue, I should re-run Audyssey with the proper crossover settings and see how my subwoofer performs with Dynamic EQ. I always found it muddy sounding but now that I know what I do now, it's no wonder why it sounded the way it did.

 

[PENG]

As for the LPF, the JVC should set everything to 80 Hz. It's a global setting. One of the first things I did on the Marantz to try and fix my issue was to use a global LPF of 80 Hz like the JVC had, as Audyssey initially had very different settings for the mains, center, surrounds, etc.

As I said, I read the manual so I am sure the JVC does not have a "LPF" setting. The "80 Hz" setting you referred to for the JVC is just the crossover setting for the speakers, not the subwoofer. There are no crossover setting for the subwoofer as such.

The SR6012, like all D&M AVRs have the LPF for LFE setting, and the recommended setting for that is 120 Hz. It has no effects except for contents that have the LFE channel. Again, this is not a "subwoofer" crossover (technically no such thing), it is the low pass filter for the LFE channel.