Denon x4000 turns off sometimes while playing high bass audio

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Which audio mode? 2.1 or Multi-Ch Stereo Mode?

Feel the AVR. Does it get hot as heck? May need cooling fans.

 

[KenM10759]

The only time I managed to send my NAD T758 into protection mode was when I ran it over -0dB for 20 minutes or more in 2.1 mode, with the crossovers set at 40hz. I was seeing just under 100dB in the room, peaks over that. Man, it was loud! That was the immature me playing with a new toy. I haven't done that since. Closest I get now with 2.0 mode (full signal to the R500's) is up into the high 80's dB range. And that's only with really good music and only me in the house.

I don't know how much more powerful an NAD T758 might be as compared to a Denon AVR-X4000. The "FTC rating" of the T758 for two channels driven is 110 watt per channel @ 8Ω, 20 to 20khz within rated distortion.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd say the Denon 4000 is more powerful based on this bench test of the T758 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review-test-bench vs this one on the similarly spec'd 4200 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The only time I managed to send my NAD T758 into protection mode was when I ran it over -0dB for 20 minutes or more in 2.1 mode, with the crossovers set at 40hz. I was seeing just under 100dB in the room, peaks over that. Man, it was loud! That was the immature me playing with a new toy. I haven't done that since. Closest I get now with 2.0 mode (full signal to the R500's) is up into the high 80's dB range. And that's only with really good music and only me in the house.

I don't know how much more powerful an NAD T758 might be as compared to a Denon AVR-X4000. The "FTC rating" of the T758 for two channels driven is 110 watt per channel @ 8Ω, 20 to 20khz within rated distortion.

 

[john20182050]

I was wondering about the same but I bet selected the absolute scale and meant "70", not 70%. If true, you and I both know "70" in absolute would read about "-10" in relative. That's quite loud, probably loud enough to justify a shutdown after playing bass notes for 30 minute on the 4-6 ohm R500.

By volume level 70 or 90 I mean when numbers that comes on the screen when i increase or decrese the volume. I don't know whether it's % or db. Volume range from 0 to 100. Isn't it that 100 means 100% volume?

 

[lovinthehd]

By volume level 70 or 90 I mean when numbers that comes on the screen when i increase or decrese the volume. I don't know whether it's % or db. Volume range from 0 to 100. Isn't it that 100 means 100% volume?

Hard to say exactly, depends on your speakers and source level to an extent and there isn't really such a thing as 100% volume. Consider that it takes a doubling of power to raise spl a mere 3dB. When you go from 70 to 90 you're using 20x the power at 90 dB than at 70 db. The dB scale is logarithmic, not linear. The Denons use either the absolute or relative scale in dB....here's an explanation from Denon https://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges 90 is damn loud (assuming you've calibrated the avr) and it wouldn't surprise me you're getting the amp to go into self protection mode.

You might try and play around with numbers in an spl calculator if you want to see what kind of wattage you're pushing for the distance you are from your speakers (and keep in mind boost via eq takes even more power).

 

[PENG]

By volume level 70 or 90 I mean when numbers that comes on the screen when i increase or decrese the volume. I don't know whether it's % or db. Volume range from 0 to 100. Isn't it that 100 means 100% volume?

In addition to hd's detailed explanation, below is from the X4000 owner's manual, p.155:

It is 0 - 98 and is not percentage as it is not linear, again, see hd's post#25 for details. If you had run Audyssey properly, 80 (or 0 if you change it to the relative scale) should be about as loud as what you hear in a movie cinema that follows THX standard.

 

[PENG]

I'd say the Denon 4000 is more powerful based on this bench test of the T758 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t758-v3-av-receiver-review-test-bench vs this one on the similarly spec'd 4200 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Based on specs, the Denon X4000 is actually closer to it's predecessor AVR-3312 and 3313, (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures) those also have better S&V bench tested output. S&V did not do any tone burst test, that, I suspect, would be the only test that I might favor the T758.

Note that the 3312, (X4000 would be the same) have impressive THD too, below 0.005% up to 90 W, and only reaches 0.1% at 125 W.

 

[KenM10759]

I can't hear any distortion on my receiver no matter how loud I go. I guess my ears suck.

 

[PENG]

I can't hear any distortion on my receiver no matter how loud I go. I guess my ears suck.

% alone does not tell the whole story. It depends on the contents of the harmonics. 1% THD for one amp may be harder to detect than 0.5% THD for another. If the THD is below 0.1% from 20-20,000 Hz, chances are that unless you have the so called golden ears, the distortions should not bother you at all. The T758's THD stayed below 0.1% until about 100 W, that's a little high compared to their integrated amps but I am sure it is low enough to be practically irrelevant.

There are other types of distortions such as inter modulation distortions that are more offensive, but as Gene mentioned more than once, if an amp's THD is good, chances are that it's IMD would be good too. To me, all else being equal, lower THD is like output power, only opposite in terms of magnitude. That is, the lower the better regardless. If THD+N is lower than say, 0.0003% (e.g. Benchmark AHB2), you don't have to worry about the contents of the harmonics, odd, even, low or high order, who care if the total is practically zero? That is not to say there is anything wrong going with one that has higher THD, if it has other positive attributes that are more important for better overall sound quality.

 

[highfigh]

I can't hear any distortion on my receiver no matter how loud I go. I guess my ears suck.

Our ears naturally compress the dynamics at high SPL and at that level, it's harder to hear distortion. Use ear plugs and listen for distortion and I bet you'll hear something you don't like. Also, by the time some kinds of distortion are audible, it has reached double-digit percentages. 10% THD is 10dB below the average level and when ears are being blasted, it's not always easy to hear.

 

[PENG]

I can't hear any distortion on my receiver no matter how loud I go. I guess my ears suck.

I didn't mean to even imply the X4000 would sound better than the T758 just because the lower THD, not at all. Just that if hd is comparing power output, then it goes hand in hand with THD. All S&V, and AH's bench tests always show both watts output along with % distortions. For better clarity, I edited my post.

 

[KenM10759]

Over the past couple of years I've worked on a variety of small home theater/music systems for myself, friends and relatives. In this, there's been some low-budget systems of used gear and some with all new equipment.

What I've found is that for the majority, having the capacity to listen to music or play movies sustaining THX reference levels just isn't common at all. Most of us are at a "speaking loudly" kind of volume and usually lower. For that, an average AVR is just fine. Get an AVR that has the features you need, and not worry much about watts per channel.

For those few who really dig always being at reference levels of sound, I think they're better off investing in a high quality, powerful multi-channel amp and a surround pre-processor that you can upgrade or not feel bad about discarding because technology as changed.

 

[PENG]

Over the past couple of years I've worked on a variety of small home theater/music systems for myself, friends and relatives. In this, there's been some low-budget systems of used gear and some with all new equipment.

What I've found is that for the majority, having the capacity to listen to music or play movies sustaining THX reference levels just isn't common at all. Most of us are at a "speaking loudly" kind of volume and usually lower. For that, an average AVR is just fine. Get an AVR that has the features you need, and not worry much about watts per channel.

For those few who really dig always being at reference levels of sound, I think they're better off investing in a high quality, powerful multi-channel amp and a surround pre-processor that you can upgrade or not feel bad about discarding because technology as changed.

Agreed, but if we want to cover "most" people, I would still recommend mid range AVRs with at least 90 to 100 WPC and with pre-outs just in case. Now that they all seem to have Eco mode, they can work a little cooler when paired with power amps.

 

[KenM10759]

I'll definitely agree with that. Pre-outs afford having a current pre-processor for relatively cheap.

 

[john20182050]

In addition to hd's detailed explanation, below is from the X4000 owner's manual, p.155:

It is 0 - 98 and is not percentage as it is not linear, again, see hd's post#25 for details. If you had run Audyssey properly, 80 (or 0 if you change it to the relative scale) should be about as loud as what you hear in a movie cinema that follows THX standard.

View attachment 25616

Great. Sorry I wasn't aware these details. Another suspect. I have 12 AWG OFC connected to the rear surround left and rear back, and front left speakers. Rest of speakers in 7.1 are connected with 14 AWG OFC. Will that be the cause of this turn in any way?
Basically, I connected two rear speakers which are more than 30 feet away from the receiver with 12 AWG and rest are connected with 14 AWG except the front left bcoz I just wanted to use the left out remaining12 AWG wire. Front speakers are KEF R500, the center is R200c and rest are JBL 530.

 

[lovinthehd]

Based on specs, the Denon X4000 is actually closer to it's predecessor AVR-3312 and 3313, (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures) those also have better S&V bench tested output. S&V did not do any tone burst test, that, I suspect, would be the only test that I might favor the T758.

Note that the 3312, (X4000 would be the same) have impressive THD too, below 0.005% up to 90 W, and only reaches 0.1% at 125 W.

Both the 4000 and 4200 are 7ch avrs spec'd by Denon for 125wpc into 8 ohm was what I meant by similarly spec'd and basically same model family to boot. Could well be the 4000 series used the same basic amp architecture as the previous models...will take a look at the thd differences, thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

Great. Sorry I wasn't aware these details. Another suspect. I have 12 AWG OFC connected to the rear surround left and rear back, and front left speakers. Rest of speakers in 7.1 are connected with 14 AWG OFC. Will that be the cause of this turn in any way?
Basically, I connected two rear speakers which are more than 30 feet away from the receiver with 12 AWG and rest are connected with 14 AWG except the front left bcoz I just wanted to use the left out remaining12 AWG wire. Front speakers are KEF R500, the center is R200c and rest are JBL 530.

Your wire is fine. If you want to explore more about speaker wire, I recommend this site http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[snakeeyes]

Agreed, but if we want to cover "most" people, I would still recommend mid range AVRs with at least 90 to 100 WPC and with pre-outs just in case. Now that they all seem to have Eco mode, they can work a little cooler when paired with power amps.

Wait, are we including Canadians too?

 

[PENG]

Both the 4000 and 4200 are 7ch avrs spec'd by Denon for 125wpc into 8 ohm was what I meant by similarly spec'd and basically same model family to boot. Could well be the 4000 series used the same basic amp architecture as the previous models...will take a look at the thd differences, thanks.

I agree with you in the sense that any difference between the 3310 through 3313, 4000, 4100 and 4200 (in fact even the 4300 an through 4500) in the amplifier sections (preamp+amp but exclude processing), are negligible, other than the number of channels.

 

[lovinthehd]

I agree with you in the sense that any difference between the 3310 through 3313, 4000, 4100 and 4200 (in fact even the 4300 an through 4500) in the amplifier sections (preamp+amp but exclude processing), are negligible, other than the number of channels.

4500? The 4520 has higher output figures plus 2 more channels....