The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[snakeeyes]

@snakeeyes Over at the other place, they have been questioning whether the new Dolby License has already put in place the restrictions on DSU processing of Dts or any other formats. This has been discussed here previously as a bad move and is due for any 2018 and possibly 2017 models as a required update.

Apparently the manual for the Yamaha Axx80 series has a page on this, but there appears to be debate about whether it is actually currently enabled. All manufacturers are to have this imposed as part of the Dolby License agreement but there has been no indication so far with the Marantz or Denon users.

Okay so my 2016 Yamaha 2060 and 681 won’t be affected but my 2017 Yamaha 770 could be. Okay I was planning for the 770 just to be 2.1 in my bedroom so I should be good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, so is this Dolby DSU restriction significant enough for people to want the previous models?

 

[snakeeyes]

Yeah, so is this Dolby DSU restriction significant enough for people to want the previous models?

I’m guessing the DTS upmixer would be very similar in performance.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I’m guessing the DTS upmixer would be very similar in performance.

Good point. Will that upset enough people to "convert" to DTS:X?

The beginning of the end to Dolby Atmos.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, the more I think about this DSU (Dolby Surround Upmixer) restriction on Native Dolby Contents, the more I think it's not a huge deal.

If the content is Dolby 2.0, Dolby 5.1, etc., then it means you have to use DSU; you cannot use DTS Upmixer. So what? I love DTS-HD MA, but I think the DTS Upmixer sucks. So no loss at all there.

I mean if the DTS Upmixer were better than DSU, then I can see an issue.

But since DSU is much better than DTS Upmixer, why would I want to use anything else except DSU?

And if the content is in DTS 2.0, DTS 5.1, etc., then you can use either DTS Upmixer or DSU.

Seems like no big deal to me.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

I can honestly say there is a difference. I've hooked up my Denon x4000h to not only my old Polk RTi A9 speakers, but to my new Focal Electras. It sounded great don't get me wrong. I have an older Denon that I still use for my 5.1 setp. But I had a 30 day trial on the x4000h so I figured I'd do a rock solid compare and contrast. I'm not a placebo effect kinda guy, I just upgraded my speaker wires to BJC for example and hardly noticed anything whatsoever. But the difference between running the AVR and the Anthem or the McIntosh on both sets of speakers, literally no contest. I know there are a lot of die-hard AVR guys on here that this might piss off, but I am just speaking the truth and what my experiences are. The Denon made them sound flatter, less punchy, and with lesser clarity. It's almost as if there was a sheet over the speakers. The lows ESPECIALLY were less pronounced, didn't have nearly the same punch and crispness, and even in the mid to high range with instrumental sharpness and vocal purity, there was a massive improvement in how the 2 performed. The Denon ran hotter, it didn't keep the same clarity when I cranked it really loud, and overall just seemed like I was overworking it, more distortion at high volumes, which is a tangible spec you can compare, just overall more detailed sounding music all the way through the band. I also had no use for the 7.1 even the video I'd never use, so why have all that spliced up to the power supply? All these cool extra features jammed in that just clutter up the electronic noise inside and complexity of it that I wouldn't use anyway. I have no other way of slicing it. The music sounded better. Not by a little, by a lot. More than any other upgrade you can do, save speakers.
Had the Denon been on the same page as the Anthem, you bet your ass I would have returned the $5500 Anthem and kept my $700 Denon. I'd love to pocket almost $5k for music, dinners, hookers, etc. But I ended up returning the Denon. There is a difference, and I have zero regrets. If you guys don't believe me, that's ok. I am giving my truthful experience, and when I had friends over, one being an Audioholic himself with a more expensive setup than me, he noticed a difference too. No contest.
Since i know this is one of the most heated discussions on here, I am leaving it at that. Figured I needed to chime in my 2 cents.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can honestly say there is a difference. I've hooked up my Denon x4000h to not only my old Polk RTi A9 speakers, but to my new Focal Electras. It sounded great don't get me wrong. I have an older Denon that I still use for my 5.1 setp. But I had a 30 day trial on the x4000h so I figured I'd do a rock solid compare and contrast. I'm not a placebo effect kinda guy, I just upgraded my speaker wires to BJC for example and hardly noticed anything whatsoever. But the difference between running the AVR and the Anthem or the McIntosh on both sets of speakers, literally no contest. I know there are a lot of die-hard AVR guys on here that this might piss off, but I am just speaking the truth and what my experiences are. The Denon made them sound flatter, less punchy, and with lesser clarity. It's almost as if there was a sheet over the speakers. The lows ESPECIALLY were less pronounced, didn't have nearly the same punch and crispness, and even in the mid to high range with instrumental sharpness and vocal purity, there was a massive improvement in how the 2 performed. The Denon ran hotter, it didn't keep the same clarity when I cranked it really loud, and overall just seemed like I was overworking it, more distortion at high volumes, which is a tangible spec you can compare, just overall more detailed sounding music all the way through the band. I also had no use for the 7.1 even the video I'd never use, so why have all that spliced up to the power supply? All these cool extra features jammed in that just clutter up the electronic noise inside and complexity of it that I wouldn't use anyway. I have no other way of slicing it. The music sounded better. Not by a little, by a lot. More than any other upgrade you can do, save speakers.
Had the Denon been on the same page as the Anthem, you bet your ass I would have returned the $5500 Anthem and kept my $700 Denon. I'd love to pocket almost $5k for music, dinners, hookers, etc. But I ended up returning the Denon. There is a difference, and I have zero regrets. If you guys don't believe me, that's ok. I am giving my truthful experience, and when I had friends over, one being an Audioholic himself with a more expensive setup than me, he noticed a difference too. No contest.
Since i know this is one of the most heated discussions on here, I am leaving it at that. Figured I needed to chime in my 2 cents.

Everyone has a different life experience for sure.

And it's difficult to give exact reasons because there are too many variables.

But in your experience, the Anthem Integrated Amp sounded better than your Denon AVR.

 

[Bookmark]

I see no point in using DSU for Atmos or Dts:X tracks. For Dolby with DSU is still effectively the same. For Dts, it is affected, however if they have made it self select the Dts Neural X then it won't be too much of an impact. Just so long as it likely auto switches back for Dolby.

It is churlish on the part of Dolby to want this. I have tried both and overall I prefer the DSU, but it is not night and day. I think, like Gene, it is more effective on the Stereo material than anything else.

Prior to added the extra speakers I was usually using Straight rather that up-mixing since the Yammy was utilizing all 7 regardless. However it will not use the additional speakers without using the up-mixer so now I am using it more.

This probably explains the need for the 5200 which seems largely a revision, than a major update that everyone was expecting/hoping for. This also probably means no further significant updates for 5100, but it suggests the 5200 likely won't be around as long as 5100.

Just to be clear, my current understanding is, if it is a Dolby codec then it must use DSU for up-mixing. If it is Dts or Auro it cannot use DSU. Pcm can be up-mixed by all of them. Additionally it only affects 2018 and possibly 2017 models for all manufacturers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I see no point in using DSU for Atmos or Dts:X tracks. For Dolby with DSU is still effectively the same. For Dts, it is affected, however if they have made it self select the Dts Neural X then it won't be too much of an impact. Just so long as it likely auto switches back for Dolby.

It is churlish on the part of Dolby to want this. I have tried both and overall I prefer the DSU, but it is not night and day. I think, like Gene, it is more effective on the Stereo material than anything else.

Prior to added the extra speakers I was usually using Straight rather that up-mixing since the Yammy was utilizing all 7 regardless. However it will not use the additional speakers without using the up-mixer so now I am using it more.

This probably explains the need for the 5200 which seems largely a revision, than a major update that everyone was expecting/hoping for. This also probably means no further significant updates for 5100, but it suggests the 5200 likely won't be around as long as 5100.

Just to be clear, my current understanding is, if it is a Dolby codec then it must use DSU for up-mixing. If it is Dts or Auro it cannot use DSU. Pcm can be up-mixed by all of them. Additionally it only affects 2018 and possibly 2017 models for all manufacturers.

Yeah, no big deal to me regarding DSU restriction.

As for the CX-A5200, we may hear more from Yamaha next Monday when they do the public announcement. But on paper, it doesn't seem like much of a change. Yamaha may just be under pressure to release a new product since Marantz has a new one every year.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I can honestly say there is a difference. I've hooked up my Denon x4000h to not only my old Polk RTi A9 speakers, but to my new Focal Electras. It sounded great don't get me wrong. I have an older Denon that I still use for my 5.1 setp. But I had a 30 day trial on the x4000h so I figured I'd do a rock solid compare and contrast. I'm not a placebo effect kinda guy, I just upgraded my speaker wires to BJC for example and hardly noticed anything whatsoever. But the difference between running the AVR and the Anthem or the McIntosh on both sets of speakers, literally no contest. I know there are a lot of die-hard AVR guys on here that this might piss off, but I am just speaking the truth and what my experiences are. The Denon made them sound flatter, less punchy, and with lesser clarity. It's almost as if there was a sheet over the speakers. The lows ESPECIALLY were less pronounced, didn't have nearly the same punch and crispness, and even in the mid to high range with instrumental sharpness and vocal purity, there was a massive improvement in how the 2 performed. The Denon ran hotter, it didn't keep the same clarity when I cranked it really loud, and overall just seemed like I was overworking it, more distortion at high volumes, which is a tangible spec you can compare, just overall more detailed sounding music all the way through the band. I also had no use for the 7.1 even the video I'd never use, so why have all that spliced up to the power supply? All these cool extra features jammed in that just clutter up the electronic noise inside and complexity of it that I wouldn't use anyway. I have no other way of slicing it. The music sounded better. Not by a little, by a lot. More than any other upgrade you can do, save speakers.
Had the Denon been on the same page as the Anthem, you bet your ass I would have returned the $5500 Anthem and kept my $700 Denon. I'd love to pocket almost $5k for music, dinners, hookers, etc. But I ended up returning the Denon. There is a difference, and I have zero regrets. If you guys don't believe me, that's ok. I am giving my truthful experience, and when I had friends over, one being an Audioholic himself with a more expensive setup than me, he noticed a difference too. No contest.
Since i know this is one of the most heated discussions on here, I am leaving it at that. Figured I needed to chime in my 2 cents.

Interesting.

When performing your listening tests, what type of equipment did you use to compare one device with another? And how did you match the volume level on each device?

 

[Bookmark]

I too am more interested in the MX-A5200 changes and hopefully the testing will turn out fine. The 5000 is I think close to 5+ years old now and reviews were not stellar which is why I never considered it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I too am more interested in the MX-A5200 changes and hopefully the testing will turn out fine. The 5000 is I think close to 5+ years old now and reviews were not stellar which is why I never considered it.

Same here. When Gene said the MX5000 went into protection mode at 7CH driven, I didn't want to read any further into it.

So hopefully the new 150WPC/2Ch 11CH MX5200 can do 100W x 9CH driven.

Asking for 100W x 11Ch driven is wishful thinking.

 

[snakeeyes]

Hm

I see no point in using DSU for Atmos or Dts:X tracks. For Dolby with DSU is still effectively the same. For Dts, it is affected, however if they have made it self select the Dts Neural X then it won't be too much of an impact. Just so long as it likely auto switches back for Dolby.

It is churlish on the part of Dolby to want this. I have tried both and overall I prefer the DSU, but it is not night and day. I think, like Gene, it is more effective on the Stereo material than anything else.

Prior to added the extra speakers I was usually using Straight rather that up-mixing since the Yammy was utilizing all 7 regardless. However it will not use the additional speakers without using the up-mixer so now I am using it more.

This probably explains the need for the 5200 which seems largely a revision, than a major update that everyone was expecting/hoping for. This also probably means no further significant updates for 5100, but it suggests the 5200 likely won't be around as long as 5100.

Just to be clear, my current understanding is, if it is a Dolby codec then it must use DSU for up-mixing. If it is Dts or Auro it cannot use DSU. Pcm can be up-mixed by all of them. Additionally it only affects 2018 and possibly 2017 models for all manufacturers.

I wonder what happens with PCM Do I try both?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hm


I wonder what happens with PCM Do I try both?

PCM should work just fine when you upmix with either DSU or DTS Upmixer.

 

[snakeeyes]

PCM should work just fine when you upmix with either DSU or DTS Upmixer.

Ok was noticing the Apple TV can send PCM or Dolby Digital. It says it starts as Dolby but then is PCM or is able to be reconverted on the Apple back to DD. But then you can make it DSU or DTS upmix again at the AVR if you have the 2016 Yamaha . Isn’t that crazy? LOL

 

[Bookmark]

Update : I have just been reading the "other place" regarding this and the information in the Yamaha manual has been confirmed by a 3080 owner. That said it appears Dolby can still use Dts Neural X and Dts can use DSU however it will not make use of the additional Height/Atmos/Overhead speakers for the respective "opposition".

 

[TechHDS]

Top of the morning guys! I’m on the fence, between Yamaha’s new A3080 with the “AI”, new Pro Saber Pro chip 9026, XLR L/R main outs. The A2080 is 300 bucks more than the A1080, and the A3080 is 500 more than the A1080. Now man I tell ya! Yamaha’s 5100 Pre-Pro just 100 bucks more than the A3080! Since they coming out with their 5200 Pre-Pro. As some of you guys know I have a XPA-5 1st gen, it’s still a very amp even though it’s 5 to 6 years old. Now I know I’ll be limited to five channels till I add amp or amps. I will add front Heights so a two channel and will be needed. Oh not too even mention I found the A3050 new going for 1149! Over at HDVisionMax!! Thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Mike

 

[snakeeyes]

Top of the morning guys! I’m on the fence, between Yamaha’s new A3080 with the “AI”, new Pro Saber Pro chip 9026, XLR L/R main outs. The A2080 is 300 bucks more than the A1080, and the A3080 is 500 more than the A1080. Now man I tell ya! Yamaha’s 5100 Pre-Pro just 100 bucks more than the A3080! Since they coming out with their 5200 Pre-Pro. As some of you guys know I have a XPA-5 1st gen, it’s still a very amp even though it’s 5 to 6 years old. Now I know I’ll be limited to five channels till I add amp or amps. I will add front Heights so a two channel and will be needed. Oh not too even mention I found the A3050 new going for 1149! Over at HDVisionMax!! Thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Mike

I believe the 2015 3050 won’t pass thru Dolby Vision or HLG, if that is important to you. It can do just HDR10 pass thru I believe. There is a thread at AVS where the 2015 Yamaha owners are complaining about lack of Dolby vision support.

 

[PENG]

Top of the morning guys! I’m on the fence, between Yamaha’s new A3080 with the “AI”, new Pro Saber Pro chip 9026, XLR L/R main outs. The A2080 is 300 bucks more than the A1080, and the A3080 is 500 more than the A1080. Now man I tell ya! Yamaha’s 5100 Pre-Pro just 100 bucks more than the A3080! Since they coming out with their 5200 Pre-Pro. As some of you guys know I have a XPA-5 1st gen, it’s still a very amp even though it’s 5 to 6 years old. Now I know I’ll be limited to five channels till I add amp or amps. I will add front Heights so a two channel and will be needed. Oh not too even mention I found the A3050 new going for 1149! Over at HDVisionMax!! Thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Mike

The 3050 is very nice but 1149 for a 2015 model is too much. If something goes wrong within the return window, you may have less chance to get a replacement.

Too bad the 2080 cannot do 11 channel processing. That's another reason I stick with Denon, I don't need to get to their top models to get the features I want. So again, unless you are sure 7 channels are all you need, go with the 3080 but negotiate hard, or forget the likely premature AI, consider the 3070.

Trust me, prepro offers no advantage, you pay more and get less especially if you need more than 5 channels, unless you need balanced connections so I would recommend the 5100.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This debate of "Separates vs AVR" is always difficult, especially when you're the one making the purchase and the price is close.

BTW, that "HD Vision Max" is NOT authorized and they are most likely fraudulent.