New Emotiva Monoblock Amp $299!

[everettT]

I purchased the 3 DCA 1222s from SFM, the Canadian distributor for QSC. As a matter of fact, those digital cinema amps are not carried by pro audio shops and only available from cinema equipment suppliers and distributors. You can get the info on a local distributor on QSC's website. If you reside in the USA, there are a few cinema equipment suppliers in California with an online store. One that I know of is Socalcinetech.com which, I believe, sell them at 20% discount.

Ya, I found that one in Texas, waiting for email back now. Thanks

 

[killdozzer]

Reading this, I would love to see a brand new, up-to-date debate on Class D. When I was looking for an amp I was warned (here as well) to be careful with Class D. There was suppose to be a clearly audible distortion with high freqs and loud listening that is due to the amp itself and not room, recordings etc.

Was this sorted? What do we have in the market today regarding Class D?

 

[lovinthehd]

Reading this, I would love to see a brand new, up-to-date debate on Class D. When I was looking for an amp I was warned (here as well) to be careful with Class D. There was suppose to be a clearly audible distortion with high freqs and loud listening that is due to the amp itself and not room, recordings etc.

Was this sorted? What do we have in the market today regarding Class D?

There are many and more on the way, but the old reputation persists. Even quite a few hi-end mfrs use Hypex and ICE modules now and are well regarded by most....except those who haven't caught up or don't like the power supply or think class A or A/B are inherently superior because they believe they can hear the class of amp used by looking at them

 

[PENG]

Reading this, I would love to see a brand new, up-to-date debate on Class D. When I was looking for an amp I was warned (here as well) to be careful with Class D. There was suppose to be a clearly audible distortion with high freqs and loud listening that is due to the amp itself and not room, recordings etc.

Was this sorted? What do we have in the market today regarding Class D?

I would not touch them 10 years ago, but I am quite sure the latest ICE are good, ie sorted..by now.. At least ICE shows you their output filter block diagrams.

 

[killdozzer]

Thank you @PENG and @lovinthehd

I've noticed a lot of high end producers are using Class D and it got me thinking. The amp that got me into this forum asking around was a Class D and that was half of the reason I passed. The otjer half was no bass output and no pre-out / mains-in.

I still think it's a beauty, though.

 

[PENG]

Thank you @PENG and @lovinthehd

I've noticed a lot of high end producers are using Class D and it got me thinking. The amp that got me into this forum asking around was a Class D and that was half of the reason I passed. The otjer half was no bass output and no pre-out / mains-in.

I still think it's a beauty, though.

You may enjoy this article, that @Irvrobinson linked recently. It is a 13 year old article, and that's why I believe those know issues should have been resolved, at least by companies like ICE, though some of the author's comments on the measurement methods would probably still apply.

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274731

Take a look of the ICE module specs, quite impressive.

http://app.efo.ru/storage/ice/ICEpower300AC_Datasheet_Class D Amplifier.pdf

 

[slipperybidness]

You may enjoy this article, that @Irvrobinson linked recently. It is a 13 year old article, and that's why I believe those know issues should have been resolved, at least by companies like ICE, though some of the author's comments on the measurement methods probably still apply.

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274731

Take a look of the ICE module specs, quite impressive.

http://app.efo.ru/storage/ice/ICEpower300AC_Datasheet_Class D Amplifier.pdf

Hypex N-Cores look to be incredible amps by any measure, and they happen to be class D.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Hypex N-Cores look to be incredible amps by any measure, and they happen to be class D.

Yeah, and their artifacts might very well be inaudible, but to measure them still requires a brick wall low-pass filter. The 13 year-old article still describes the standard way Class D amplifiers are measured, and the Hypex specs corroborate that.

 

[M Code]

As I posted previously...
Class D amplifiers have already taken over HD displays, PCs, tablets, sound bars, subwoofers, pro-audio, 12V OE, 12V aftermarket.. Their benefits of:

• Lower cost
• Less heat
• Smaller footprint
• Higher power

Only the home audio biz continues to debate the sonic merits for the amplifier types:

• Tube
• Class A
• Class A-B
• Class D
• Class H

So the debate continues..
But 1 thing for certain, the latest Class D designs have definitely addressed some of its earlier sonic shortcomings....
My recommendation would be for each to do their own comparison, then decide..
Don't take some unsubstantiated post on a forum as gospel..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Irvrobinson]

As I posted previously...
Class D amplifiers have already taken over HD displays, PCs, tablets, sound bars, subwoofers, pro-audio, 12V OE, 12V aftermarket.. Their benefits of:

• Lower cost
• Less heat
• Smaller footprint
• Higher power

Only the home audio biz continues to debate the sonic merits for the amplifier types:

• Tube
• Class A
• Class A-B
• Class D
• Class H

So the debate continues..
But 1 thing for certain, the latest Class D designs have definitely addressed some of its earlier sonic shortcomings....
My recommendation would be for each to do their own comparison, then decide..
Don't take some unsubstantiated post on a forum as gospel..

Just my $0.02...

It might be that Class D amps are not audibly worse than Class A/AB amps under all conditions, I don't know if that's true or not. On the other hand, you're making some weak arguments for the acceptability of Class D amps.

All of the markets you list where Class D has taken over are not rigorous. PCs? You mean laptops and displays? Not exactly what I would call high fidelity examples. Sound bars? Subwoofers? (Subwoofers use a very restricted frequency range, perfect for Class D.) Sound reinforcement? Quality in speakers is compromised for quantity. 12v automotive? With road noise factored in it's irrelevant.

As for your assertion that Class D designs have improved, what is your evidence for this? The Hypex Ncore designs, as used in the ATI amps, are from 2008. Hypex still calls for brick wall low-pass filters - in their own specs - to measure them. My contention is different. The 13 year old article is still accurate, and if Class D amplifiers are good enough for high fidelity audio it's because they were designed and implemented that way originally.

I think the evidence shows that the only difference between Class D amps ten years ago and now is that product designers have decided to bring them to market.

 

[M Code]

It might be that Class D amps are not audibly worse than Class A/AB amps under all conditions, I don't know if that's true or not. On the other hand, you're making some weak arguments for the acceptability of Class D amps.

All of the markets you list where Class D has taken over are not rigorous. PCs? You mean laptops and displays? Not exactly what I would call high fidelity examples. Sound bars? Subwoofers? (Subwoofers use a very restricted frequency range, perfect for Class D.) Sound reinforcement? Quality in speakers is compromised for quantity. 12v automotive? With road noise factored in it's irrelevant.

As for your assertion that Class D designs have improved, what is your evidence for this? The Hypex Ncore designs, as used in the ATI amps, are from 2008. Hypex still calls for brick wall low-pass filters - in their own specs - to measure them. My contention is different. The 13 year old article is still accurate, and if Class D amplifiers are good enough for high fidelity audio it's because they were designed and implemented that way originally.

I think the evidence shows that the only difference between Class D amps ten years ago and now is that product designers have decided to bring them to market.

Rather than debating the issues and using an older, dated 13-year old tech article to substantiate a position....
My question would be..
Have U listened to some of the latest Class D designs? Such as the Hypex or ICE?
And then let your ears decide..
There have been some significant performance improvements, without auditioning these we are simply exchanging mixed opinions.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Irvrobinson]

Rather than debating the issues and using an older, dated 13-year old tech article to substantiate a position....
My question would be..
Have U listened to some of the latest Class D designs? Such as the Hypex or ICE?
And then let your ears decide..
There have been some significant performance improvements, without auditioning these we are simply exchanging mixed opinions.

Just my $0.02...

You don't want to debate issues on Audioholics? Are you serious? Then why are you here?

It is my point that the article isn't dated, and I don't see your evidence that there have been significant performance improvements. I contend that there have been none. But I also point out that I don't have any evidence that Class D amps sound worse. I just don't like them because it is a fact that they put ultra-sonic garbage in the analog outputs. End of story.

I have not listened to Class D full-range amps in my primary system, though my subwoofer has one.

 

[lovinthehd]

You don't want to debate issues on Audioholics? Are you serious? Then why are you here?

It is my point that the article isn't dated, and I don't see your evidence that there have been significant performance improvements. I contend that there have been none. But I also point out that I don't have any evidence that Class D amps sound worse. I just don't like them because it is a fact that they put ultra-sonic garbage in the analog outputs. End of story.

I have not listened to Class D full-range amps in my primary system, though my subwoofer has one.

So why would this "ultrasonic garbage" affect your speakers any more than your sub?

 

[PENG]

You don't want to debate issues on Audioholics? Are you serious? Then why are you here?

It is my point that the article isn't dated, and I don't see your evidence that there have been significant performance improvements. I contend that there have been none. But I also point out that I don't have any evidence that Class D amps sound worse. I just don't like them because it is a fact that they put ultra-sonic garbage in the analog outputs. End of story.

I have not listened to Class D full-range amps in my primary system, though my subwoofer has one.

I don't want to keep any garbage either, but not all class D amp's garbage are audible. If you spend some time auditioning the good one, you might like them. JA seemed to like Bel Canto's, especially the $20,000 ones.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So why would this "ultrasonic garbage" affect your speakers any more than your sub?

I don't know that it audibly does or it doesn't, but some metal dome tweeters (like I have) have ultra-sonic frequency response, and I don't know what happens when they get that crap in the signal. I don't know of any speakers with low-pass filters. But the point is, just for me personally, I don't want to know. I'll just buy heavier and more expensive Class AB amps that don't work this way, and have a cleaner overall output. My choice; just a preference. It won't be first time I've been accused of being a technology dinosaur. (Though the last time was 25 years ago, and it was about data visualization.)

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't want to keep any garbage either, but not all class D amp's garbage are audible. If you spend some time auditioning the good one, you might like them. JA seemed to like Bel Canto's, especially the $20,000 ones.

How many times do I have to say that I don't know if it's audible? I just don't like it, audible or not.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't know that it audibly does or it doesn't, but some metal dome tweeters (like I have) have ultra-sonic frequency response, and I don't know what happens when they get that crap in the signal. I don't know of any speakers with low-pass filters. But the point is, just for me personally, I don't want to know. I'll just buy heavier and more expensive Class AB amps that don't work this way, and have a cleaner overall output. My choice; just a preference. It won't be first time I've been accused of being a technology dinosaur. (Though the last time was 25 years ago, and it was about data visualization.)

And one thing I forgot, subs have low-pass filters, full range speakers don't.

 

[M Code]

You don't want to debate issues on Audioholics? Are you serious? Then why are you here?

My participation here @ Audioholics is not for debate purposes..
Frankly speaking, running (2) businesses I have little time to debate...
My posts typically try to answer a basic technical issue or clarification and/or to provide some real, objective information based upon my experience.. Besides if it sounds good to my customers or clients, that is most important....

Just my $0.02..

 

[PENG]

How many times do I have to say that I don't know if it's audible? I just don't like it, audible or not.

Sorry I upset you. I didn't know there have been so many posts within such a short time. So you don't like it regardless, understood, but for others who do consider "audibility" I would like to say that according to the specs of the ICE modules, the switching frequency was 480 to 500 kHz. At frequency that high, the inductive reactance of the voice coil alone of the Be tweeter would be so high (20X), relative to that at 25 kHz, so after filtering, the current at such high frequency will be negligibly low to do any harm, are definitely not audible by humans. There are radio frequency in the air too, for AM it starts as low as just above 500 kHz.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Sorry I upset you. I didn't know there have been so many posts within such a short time. So you don't like it regardless, understood, but for others who do consider "audibility" I would like to say that according to the specs of the ICE modules, the switching frequency was 480 to 500 kHz. At frequency that high, the inductive reactance of the voice coil alone of the Be tweeter would be so high (20X), relative to that at 25 kHz, so after filtering, the current at such high frequency will be negligibly low to do any harm, are definitely not audible by humans. There are radio frequency in the air too, for AM it starts as low as just above 500 kHz.

If the noise was 35uV at 500KHz I doubt that even I would care, but looking at the latest ICE data sheets too, they're still measured with AES17 filters, which are 7th order at 20KHz. If the noise really was out there where only a megahertz plot would show it, why deploy the brick wall filter? I smell fish.