The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can't argue with that logic!!

Imo Marantz may have priced the 8805 out of the game. I would grab the avr-8500 instead if I really want a 11 channel prepro but I think the 4400 is good enough.

For me, if I had the option between a 5Ch CX-A5100 vs a 32Ch CX-5100 for the SAME price, I would get the 5Ch!

That's why I actually prefer the X3400's 7.1Ch over the X4400's 9.2Ch.

More Channels and more parts just means more chances of something screwing up, you know - entropy and all.

 

[PENG]

For me, if I had the option between a 5Ch CX-A5100 vs a 32Ch CX-5100 for the SAME price, I would get the 5Ch!

That's why I actually prefer the X3400's 7.1Ch over the X4400's 9.2Ch.

More Channels and more parts just means more chances of something screwing up, you know - entropy and all.

I agree with you in principle, but since I have been using 7 channels for a long time I don't mind two more channels just in case I want to try Atmos for fun. The 4400, unfortunately has 11 channels (as prepro). Hopefully that extra two channel won't compromise reliability much. The 4 extra preamp channels don't really add complexity, but along with the 2 additional power amp modules, it does add some heat. I think it has at least 3 fans to take care of any potential heat related issues. It is the features that I don't use, such as Apple Air 2, AM/FM tuners, online streaming software, Denon Link, HEOs etc., that I wish are optional, but that's just wishful thinking.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I agree with you in principle, but since I have been using 7 channels for a long time I don't mind two more channels just in case I want to try Atmos for fun. The 4400, unfortunately has 11 channels (as prepro). Hopefully that extra two channel won't compromise reliability much. The 4 extra preamp channels don't really add complexity, but along with the 2 additional power amp modules, it does add some heat. I think it has at least 3 fans to take care of any potential heat related issues. It is the features that I don't use, such as Apple Air 2, AM/FM tuners, online streaming software, Denon Link, HEOs etc., that I wish are optional, but that's just wishful thinking.

I have the AVR-X4400H and there have been no issues with the extra channels or heat. There are (2) fans on the bottom of the unit that push air upward over the heat sinks. In terms of features and sound it has been the best receiver I have ever purchased in my life (so far).

 

[PENG]

I have the AVR-X4400H and there have been no issues with the extra channels or heat. There are (2) fans on the bottom of the unit that push air upward over the heat sinks. In terms of features and sound it has been the best receiver I have ever purchased in my life (so far).

I didn't mean it had heat issue. I meant if one only uses 7 channels, then the extra preamp/amp modules would just be sitting there producing extra heat, that's all. I looked at the pictures and thought there were 3 fans but now I can see that the 3rd one on the right is just a reflection or something, there is simply no room there for a 3rd fan anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with you in principle, but since I have been using 7 channels for a long time I don't mind two more channels just in case I want to try Atmos for fun. The 4400, unfortunately has 11 channels (as prepro). Hopefully that extra two channel won't compromise reliability much. The 4 extra preamp channels don't really add complexity, but along with the 2 additional power amp modules, it does add some heat. I think it has at least 3 fans to take care of any potential heat related issues. It is the features that I don't use, such as Apple Air 2, AM/FM tuners, online streaming software, Denon Link, HEOs etc., that I wish are optional, but that's just wishful thinking.

Yeah, I think many of us abhor many of these features. I hate all the DSP modes on the Yamaha; they have about 100 DSP modes, it's ridiculous. Oh, the things we have to endure.

 

[KEW]

I hate all the DSP modes on the Yamaha; they have about 100 DSP modes, it's ridiculous. Oh, the things we have to endure.

Freakin first world problems

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have the AVR-X4400H and there have been no issues with the extra channels or heat. There are (2) fans on the bottom of the unit that push air upward over the heat sinks. In terms of features and sound it has been the best receiver I have ever purchased in my life (so far).

Well, if someone offered me either one for free, I would take the X4400. Everyone would.

But just in my theory, components with more internal parts might not last as long as components with fewer parts.

I think that is the argument among the separates camp - AVRs have a lot more internal parts than pre-pros. Thus, pre-pros last longer.

I guess my AVP-A1HDCI didn't get the memo.

 

[KEW]

But I just compared YPAO Volume On vs Off. Since Through and Front modes sounded the best, I used these 2 modes and compared Y-Volume on and off. And I couldn’t tell the difference. What the heck! But it sounds just like my Denon AVP w/ DEQ turned on! So why does YPAO Volume On & Off both sounded the same?

If I understand Ypao Volume and DEQ, they are designed to compensate for how our hearing changes as the SPL decreases.
In theory, If you are listening near reference level they may have little or no effect.
A test for this theory would be to turn the volume down by 10dB or so and see if there is a difference.

 

[lovinthehd]

If I understand Ypao Volume and DEQ, they are designed to compensate for how our hearing changes as the SPL decreases.
In theory, If you are listening near reference level they may have little or no effect.
A test for this theory would be to turn the volume down by 10dB or so and see if there is a difference.

Keep in mind ADTG tweaks the DEQ setup...plus I think YPAO may handle sub vs speaker levels differently....

 

[panteragstk]

If I understand Ypao Volume and DEQ, they are designed to compensate for how our hearing changes as the SPL decreases.
In theory, If you are listening near reference level they may have little or no effect.
A test for this theory would be to turn the volume down by 10dB or so and see if there is a difference.

What he (and I for that matter) want out of DEQ is the ability for bass to still exist at all volume levels. When I first had to turn down a movie (my mom can be irritating in that regard) I was astonished at how good the bass still was thanks to DEQ. Normally with my other AVRs that lack such a feature the bass would all but disappear. Not totally, but the impact with DEQ while being at a "low" volume was quite nice.

I was eyeing a 5100 before I got my 4300h. Seems that it would have worked well enough for me. I'll have to keep an open mind for Yamaha (well, YAPO). Yamaha has always been a quality manufacturer.

 

[PENG]

But just in my theory, components with more internal parts might not last as long as components with fewer parts.

I think that is the argument among the separates camp - AVRs have a lot more internal parts than pre-pros. Thus, pre-pros last longer.

I guess my AVP-A1HDCI didn't get the memo.

The first part is generally true but not the second part. Power amp modules in an AVR typically shouldn't and aren't that complicated. It adds a little heat but not a whole lot for most people, and it you give it additional cooling, it may even outlast a more complicated separate prepro and power amp that tend to have more complicated circuitry and components, in order to squeeze out the better specs that may not be audible to people without golden ears.

 

[PENG]

If I understand Ypao Volume and DEQ, they are designed to compensate for how our hearing changes as the SPL decreases.
In theory, If you are listening near reference level they may have little or no effect.
A test for this theory would be to turn the volume down by 10dB or so and see if there is a difference.

That's what I thought, but ADTG apparently don't listen at reference level.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Power amp modules in an AVR typically shouldn't and aren't that complicated. It adds a little heat but not a whole lot for most people, and it you give it additional cooling, it may even outlast a more complicated separate prepro and power amp that tend to have more complicated circuitry and components, in order to squeeze out the better specs that may not be audible to people without golden ears.

The fact that my Denon AVP-A1HD pre-pro has already failed adds to your point.

The AVP-A1HD is a "separates" pre-pro with Class-A analog preamp section. Fully balanced from input to output and all that jazz. It has 2 giant transformers and a million other things. It weighs like a tank and is built like a tank until it breaks. It's so complex that Denon techs cannot fix. What good is that?

Yeah, bitter taste in my mouth.

So I bet the Denon X3400, X4400, and X6400 AVRs have a lot less internal parts than the AVP-A1HD.

Truth be told, one of the reasons I wanted to "experiment" with the Yamaha CX-A5100 was because I thought it might be more reliable than the Marantz AV8802 and AV8805 beyond 10 years. Only time will tell.

 

[PENG]

So I bet the Denon X3400, X4400, and X6400 AVRs have a lot less internal parts than the AVP-A1HD.

And my AV8801 is 7 lbs heavier than the X3400H.

 

[PENG]

The fact that my Denon AVP-A1HD pre-pro has already failed adds to your point.

The AVP-A1HD is a "separates" pre-pro with Class-A analog preamp section. Fully balanced from input to output and all that jazz. It has 2 giant transformers and a million other things. It weighs like a tank and is built like a tank until it breaks. It's so complex that Denon techs cannot fix. What good is that?

Yeah, bitter taste in my mouth.

So I bet the Denon X3400, X4400, and X6400 AVRs have a lot less internal parts than the AVP-A1HD.

Truth be told, one of the reasons I wanted to "experiment" with the Yamaha CX-A5100 was because I thought it might be more reliable than the Marantz AV8802 and AV8805 beyond 10 years. Only time will tell.

Heat, voltage spikes, and dirt are the top killers of the electronic components. If you can keep them reasonably cool and clean, and turn them off during storms, that thing should definitely last beyond 10 years after the warranty period.

I have no idea why your AVP failed so soon, it is unusual. None of my Denon AVR has ever failed, yet..though I am sure one will, eventually. The way it behaved, I bet it has to do with the protective circuitry.

Denon should have done better than just refunding the repair cost, time to talk to their top management especially since you are probably one of their biggest fan, have purchased multiple units from them and been promoting them on this forum (only if they know, and care though).

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Hypothetical: You have a receiver or preamp/power amp that is 20 years old.

Does time/age affect the sound? If so, how?

 

[Verdinut]

Heat, voltage spikes, and dirt are the top killers of the electronic components. If you can keep them reasonably cool and clean, and turn them off during storms, that thing should definitely last beyond 10 years after the warranty period.

I have no idea why your AVP failed so soon, it is unusual. None of my Denon AVR has ever failed, yet..though I am sure one will, eventually. The way it behaved, I bet it has to do with the protective circuitry.

Denon should have done better than just refunding the repair cost, time to talk to their top management especially since you are probably one of their biggest fan, have purchased multiple units from them and been promoting them on this forum (only if they know, and care though).

As you know, not only spikes but wide voltage variations can also damage sensitive IC components and a surge protector won't protect against such situations. In some areas, voltage can vary as much as 15% and maybe more, who knows? Once, I witnessed a voltage reading of 138 volts at one of my friend's. We are convinced that those variations had damaged one of his AVRs and fried one plasma TV. To avoid further problems, he bought an APC H15 Power Conditioner that controls and limits voltage variations, trims and boosts voltage if required. He hasn't had any more such damaged equipment since.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Hypothetical: You have a receiver or preamp/power amp that is 20 years old.

Does time/age affect the sound? If so, how?

With the latest AVRs and pre-pros I doubt aging affects the sound much. Most of the circuits in the line stages are ASICs, and ASICs don't age like some discrete components. Capacitors in the signal path do age, and they could affect SQ in unpredictable ways, but most of the caps I've seen in the processor stages are power supply caps, and when they go the problems are overt.

We were discussing amp aging in another thread. The old audiophile amps with those huge soda-can sized caps seem more subject to aging, partially because they used discrete circuitry for the first 2-3 amplification stages, and because those as those big smoothing caps aged their electrical series resistance increased. The latest amps seem to use arrays of smaller caps with much lower ESR that (I would guess) have less unit-to-unit variability and age more slowly. I know several people who have had their old amps "re-capped" at significant expense, and they always seem to claim the amps sound so much better after the re-capping. I always wonder how much of that improvement is real and how much is imagined.

The problem with amps built out of discrete components is that you can't predict anything. Discrete components are variable; some may last longer than others, even in the same production run. Then there's environmental factors. Is the amp in a closed cabinet in Orlando, or sitting on a floor stand in an air-conditioned room in Seattle? Predicting amp reliability is a shot in the dark. The only way to know if SQ is affected is to bench test it, or to do a comparison test with a newer amp of comparable quality. As I mentioned previously, I'd just rather swap amps every fifteen years and get the latest technology. In audio, newer is usually better.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As I mentioned previously, I'd just rather swap amps every fifteen years and get the latest technology. In audio, newer is usually better.

Every 15YR?

Okay, tell me something. Should I be upset at all if my Pre-pro breaks in 10YR?

Or is 10YR "fair" enough?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Every 15YR?

Okay, tell me something. Should I be upset at all if my Pre-pro breaks in 10YR?

Or is 10YR "fair" enough?

I'd be upset. I was pretty pissed off when my Levinson No39 blew its digital board after ten years or so. Ten years is too short a lifespan, IMO.