The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Andrein]

You can apply ypao volume even without running ypao. In this case the current, not post-ypao curve will be updated in certain ranges. Also i dont know for sure but what i can hear is that Through mode disables ypao even for subs. In my case when i select Through i get back all my bass suppressed by ypao.

Also where are there separate bypass options for l/r and sub? Haven't seen these in Yamaha setup.

P.s. Just watched Gene's video on cx5100. He says that Through mode basically means no EQ.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can apply ypao volume even without running ypao. In this case the current, not post-ypao curve will be updated in certain ranges. Also i dont know for sure but what i can hear is that Through mode disables ypao even for subs. In my case when i select Through i get back all my bass suppressed by ypao.

Also where are there separate bypass options for l/r and sub? Haven't seen these in Yamaha setup.

P.s. Just watched Gene's video on cx5100. He says that Through mode basically means no EQ.

Maybe.

I’ve compared Pure Direct w/ Extra Bass vs. Through w/o Extra Bass, and I think I get more bass with Through Mode w/o Extra Bass.

Which 2 YPAO modes sound the best to you?

Flat, Natural, Front, or Through?

I’ve been enjoying movies and TV shows all day. But I will play some mor with YPAO modes some other day.

 

[snakeeyes]

Maybe.

I’ve compared Pure Direct w/ Extra Bass vs. Through w/o Extra Bass, and I think I get more bass with Through Mode w/o Extra Bass.

Which 2 YPAO modes sound the best to you?

Flat, Natural, Front, or Through?

I’ve been enjoying movies and TV shows all day. But I will play some mor with YPAO modes some other day.

I set to natural on 2060, but I didn’t try all of them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I set to natural on 2060, but I didn’t try all of them.

I think I’m going crazy.

I just did a comparison w/ the 4 modes. I definitely think FRONT (Bypass L/R) and THROUGH (Bypass YPAO) sounded the best - they sounded just like what I’m used to hearing with my Denon AVP-A1HD w/ Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ.

With the Denon AVP, 5308, and X3100, the difference between DEQ On vs Off is unequivocal - day and night. I’ve compared it so many times and the results are invariable. DEQ is just unequivocally better when it’s on.

But I just compared YPAO Volume On vs Off. Since Through and Front modes sounded the best, I used these 2 modes and compared Y-Volume on and off. And I couldn’t tell the difference. What the heck! But it sounds just like my Denon AVP w/ DEQ turned on! So why does YPAO Volume On & Off both sounded the same?

So now my settings are:
1. STRAIGHT mode (since Pure Direct means no Subwoofers)
2. THROUGH mode (Through & Front sounded best to me)
3. YPAO Volume is OFF (since I get awesome bass without it)
4. ADRC is OFF (don’t want to compress Dynamic Range)

I think I’m going nuts.

 

[PENG]

You can apply ypao volume even without running ypao.

ypao volume without running ypao? That sounds weird, not even logical, but that's just my opinion.

 

[PENG]

I think overall Audyssey XT32 (Denon 4520) may have better RoomEQ and SubEQ than YPAO-64 Bit. That means the Denon X3400 receiver has better EQ than the Yamaha CX-A5100 pre-pro.

@PENG and others have posted Audyssey plots of XT32, which looked great.

But for just bass (Bypass YPAO, YPAO Volume On),I feel the bass sounds just as awesome and equal to XT32 for movies and music. But that’s just subjective. Audyssey bass Frequency plots may look better than YPAO.

With XT32, I thought FLAT sounded like Bypass. AUDYSSEY sounded a little suppressed or lifeless.

With YPAO, everything sounded different than Bypass/THROUGH. FLAT sounded way too bright. NATURAL sounded like AUDYSSEY. FRONT sounded like between NATURAL and FLAT, but maybe slightly bright. THROUGH/Bypass sounded the best to me.

I’ve heard Dirac and ARC vs Bypass. I still thought Bypass sounded best.

But with just bass, YPAO Volume “sounds” equal to my experience with XT32 DEQ. That’s the only reason I am keeping the CX-A5100. DEQ bass was my dealbreaker - no way I would buy anything that didn’t sound as good as DEQ.

BTW, the YPAO says 64-bit. Is Audyssey XT32 also 64-bit or 32-bit?

You must have a very good room. I wish you were at my place today when I used the Denon App to flip between Audyssey ref, flat and off and flat sounded fantastic, ref was good too but off sounded "off". With Audyssey on, sound stage got better, and it made my system sounded more transparent overall. I do leave Audyssey on full time in the HT room, but after using the App to AB compared on/off many times, now I know for sure I should use it for music listening as well.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think I’m going crazy.

I just did a comparison w/ the 4 modes. I definitely think FRONT (Bypass L/R) and THROUGH (Bypass YPAO) sounded the best - they sounded just like what I’m used to hearing with my Denon AVP-A1HD w/ Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ.

With the Denon AVP, 5308, and X3100, the difference between DEQ On vs Off is unequivocal - day and night. I’ve compared it so many times and the results are invariable. DEQ is just unequivocally better when it’s on.

But I just compared YPAO Volume On vs Off. Since Through and Front modes sounded the best, I used these 2 modes and compared Y-Volume on and off. And I couldn’t tell the difference. What the heck! But it sounds just like my Denon AVP w/ DEQ turned on! So why does YPAO Volume On & Off both sounded the same?

So now my settings are:
1. STRAIGHT mode (since Pure Direct means no Subwoofers)
2. THROUGH mode (Through & Front sounded best to me)
3. YPAO Volume is OFF (since I get awesome bass without it)
4. ADRC is OFF (don’t want to compress Dynamic Range)

I think I’m going nuts.

You know, I like to try movies with Ypao volume and without and often like it on. I always turn ADRC off. I originally had both off but changed my mind after another thread. I normally use straight and let DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD take care of surround processing on Blu-ray movies or UHD.

 

[Andrein]

Maybe.

I’ve compared Pure Direct w/ Extra Bass vs. Through w/o Extra Bass, and I think I get more bass with Through Mode w/o Extra Bass.

Which 2 YPAO modes sound the best to you?

Flat, Natural, Front, or Through?

I’ve been enjoying movies and TV shows all day. But I will play some mor with YPAO modes some other day.

I prefer Through. Play with modes sometimes but always come to Through in the end. Feel more or less the same to how you described the sound of these modes some posts ago. I would like to try connecting to my avr via web interface and create my own config - bass from Through and maybe some parts from Natural or Flat.

 

[Andrein]

ypao volume without running ypao? That sounds weird, not even logical, but that's just my opinion.

Ypao volume is a bit misleading name for yamaha loudness EQ feature.

 

[killdozzer]

Few side notes:

Someone might think AVR's sound better. It is highly possible I'm not the first one to suggest this. If there's alot of money being invested in AVR's which seem to be the common wisdom here, some of it might go towards sound improvements.

I would add all-in-one units. Not separates and not AVR's. Have something AVR's don't and bring together a lot of separates.

One such machine:

A quote: Lyric (THREE) is the last word in high-end audio integrated into a single box. Superlative design and engineering ensure that you can access up to 15 different sources of music through this single box, including TIDAL, USB, DLNA, CD, DAB, FM, Internet Radio as well as being able to connect existing hi-fi components through the analogue and digital inputs.

And the quote didn't even mention the PC in so if you store rips of CD's or high-res audio files on your PC, you can play them. It is also a CD player and cyrus is well known for good cd players (if you ask yourself what does it have that AVR's don't, it is cd player and an USB B in.)

(It's a Class D amp... Many will say you can't really hear it, but most will avoid it if possible. Perhaps since it's 2x200wpch you don't have to push it to the levels where you hear Class D massing the highs)

It also has the analogue out and in. You could go to a sub if it has its own management interface, like SVS 4000 and such, do what needs to be done and go back to the audio in and then to mains.

No need to mention preamp, headphone in etc. Phono in is lacking.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You must have a very good room. I wish you were at my place today when I used the Denon App to flip between Audyssey ref, flat and off and flat sounded fantastic, ref was good too but off sounded "off". With Audyssey on, sound stage got better, and it made my system sounded more transparent overall. I do leave Audyssey on full time in the HT room, but after using the App to AB compared on/off many times, now I know for sure I should use it for music listening as well.

I thought Audyssey Flat and Bypas sounded best; Audyssey Reference sounded “suppressed” or “lifeless” somehow. I couldn’t tell the difference between Flat and Bypass.

With YPAO, both Flat and Natural sounded a little weird and unnatural for sure - like DSP Mode.

Oh well, the funny thing is that I am supposedly not using any kind of EQ now (YPAO Through, YPAO Volume OFF),and the SQ is just as good to me as Audyssey DEQ - crystal clear natural sound with awesome bass.

I see why @TLS Guy said he doesn't need EQ.

Now I can truly say that I can live without Audyssey Dynamic EQ or any kind of EQ at all - at least with the CX-A5100 in my system. I thought I had tried no EQ (no DEQ) in my Denon's for long time and couldn't get the sound I love. I just tried this a few days ago before I got the CX-A5100. But perhaps I never tried HARD ENOUGH.

Perhaps I could get the sound I love with any Pre-pro or AVR (even without using any EQ) if I play with the different modes and levels and settings.

If you can get better sound with Audyssey Flat, Dirac, ARC, Trinnov, Lyndorf, YPAO, or other EQ, then definitely use that. But if you feel that the best sound you hear is with Bypass Mode or no EQ at all, then definitely don't use any EQ.

You just don't know until you try for yourself.

So the take-home message is to find the sound you love by experimenting with all the Room EQ modes, DEQ/Volume modes, and Speaker/Subwoofer Levels. It varies among all the different brands. Every system is different.

 

[PENG]

I thought Audyssey Flat and Bypas sounded best; Audyssey Reference sounded “suppressed” or “lifeless” somehow. I couldn’t tell the difference between Flat and Bypass.

M Code and I don't agree on everything, but I would agree with him 100% when he said:

Regarding the performance of Audyssey, we have found that its setup to be very crucial so we actually use a 15" extension rod and tripod.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/6-of-the-best-flagship-av-receivers-compared-for-2018.111708/page-2

Perhaps I could get the sound I love with any Pre-pro or AVR (even without using any EQ) if I play with the different modes and levels and settings.

As I said, you must have a good (acoustically) room. I would love to REW your room just to see how good it is.

If you can get better sound with Audyssey Flat, Dirac, ARC, Trinnov, Lyndorf, YPAO, or other EQ, then definitely use that. But if you feel that the best sound you hear is with Bypass Mode or no EQ at all, then definitely don't use any EQ.

Can't argue with that logic!

So the take-home message is to find the sound you love by experimenting with all the Room EQ modes, DEQ/Volume modes, and Speaker/Subwoofer Levels. It varies among all the different brands. Every system is different.

I would add that REQ is only good if the set up is done right, and it does take some effort. Even REW plus minidsp takes quite a bit of effort. I can run Audyssey and get very good result in 15 minutes (no fine tuning) but that's after years of experience in the trial and error part of the process that included some manual fine tuning such experimenting with XO, sub crawling, PEQ etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"we actually use a 15" extension rod and tripod"

I would add that REQ is only good if the set up is done right, and it does take some effort.

I use a tripod and get the mic at ear level, but I don't have an extension rod. Maybe that's the key?

 

[panteragstk]

I use a tripod and get the mic at ear level, but I don't have an extension rod. Maybe that's the key?

It would be interesting (as @PENG stated) to see how your room measures.

 

[M Code]

It would be interesting (as @PENG stated) to see how your room measures.

The biggest variable for having a good sounding HT or music system is handling the listening room's acoustic impact for its final sonic frequency response....
Key point is the lower the microphone position, the less effect of measuring the room itself.. This can be even more crucial with certain listening rooms that have a high ceiling..
When we developed some of the proprietary DSP EQ algorithms with Dr.Toole's R&D team, I was totally amazed of the different measured transfer functions when elevating the measuring microphone. A similar audible, dramatic effect happened as we went to front height speakers and then to the overhead speakers for the immersive object outputs for Dolby Atmos and DTS X...
I won't post my final preferences but encourage the HT listener to experiment with loudspeaker placement and microphone positioning...
But definitely the final sonic sound stage is greatly influenced and one may find 1 more to one's liking..

Just my $0.02..

 

[PENG]

The biggest variable for having a good sounding HT or music system is handling the listening room's acoustic impact for its final sonic frequency response....
Key point is the lower the microphone position, the less effect of measuring the room itself.. This can be even more crucial with certain listening rooms that have a high ceiling..
When we developed some of the proprietary DSP EQ algorithms with Dr.Toole's R&D team, I was totally amazed of the different measured transfer functions when elevating the measuring microphone. A similar audible, dramatic effect happened as we went to front height speakers and then to the overhead speakers for the immersive object outputs for Dolby Atmos and DTS X...
I won't post my final preferences but encourage the HT listener to experiment with loudspeaker placement and microphone positioning...
But definitely the final sonic sound stage is greatly influenced and one may find 1 more to one's liking..

Just my $0.02..

I found that the "at ear height" thing is a bad idea, obviously much worse for short people with high back sofas.

 

[panteragstk]

I found that the "at ear height" thing is a bad idea, obviously much worse for short people with high back sofas.

That's what I did with my room. So, what height would you say the mic should be at?

 

[Mikado463]

I found that the "at ear height" thing is a bad idea, obviously much worse for short people with high back sofas.

I'm curious, why is that ?

as for high back listening chairs / sofas, not a good idea to begin with.

 

[Andrein]

Doe enyone have an extension rod? Does it really make a difference? How is it better than a tripod?

 

[M Code]

Doe enyone have an extension rod? Does it really make a difference? How is it better than a tripod?

The extension rod have a 1/4-20 UNC thread. The rod I use was supplied with an HK AVR some years back... The main contribution of the extension rod is two fold; 1 is to raise its height and the other is to isolate the microphone extended upward without any nearby reflective surfaces...

Just my $0.02...