The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[panteragstk]

Every 15YR?

Okay, tell me something. Should I be upset at all if my Pre-pro breaks in 10YR?

Or is 10YR "fair" enough?

I've got a lower end Kenwood AVR that still works. That thing is around 16 years old. It's so outdated it's no longer useful for anything other than a garage amp.

 

[PENG]

As you know, not only spikes but wide voltage variations can also damage sensitive IC components and a surge protector won't protect against such situations. In some areas, voltage can vary as much as 15% and maybe more, who knows? Once, I witnessed a voltage reading of 138 volts at one of my friend's. We are convinced that those variations had damaged one of his AVRs and fried one plasma TV. To avoid further problems, he bought an APC H15 Power Conditioner that controls and limits voltage variations, trims and boosts voltage if required. He hasn't had any more such damaged equipment since.

I don't rely on cheap surge suppression devices. I unplugged my expensive electronics during storms, but probably won't be as careful with the low cost 3400. If don't know there are lightning activities going on then there isn't much I can do.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't rely on cheap surge suppression devices. I unplugged my expensive electronics during storms,

Unplugging expensive electronics is the way to go. We have some pretty impressive thunderstorms in the area my primary system is in, and I wouldn't trust it to any surge suppressor I'm willing to pay for.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've got a lower end Kenwood AVR that still works. That thing is around 16 years old. It's so outdated it's no longer useful for anything other than a garage amp.

Was your AVR 5.1 and probably didn't have any features?

Yeah, my brother still has my old Harman Kardon 5.1 AVR from about 20YR ago that still works.

I think the AVR's back then had very little internal parts and features compared to the AVRs and Pre-pros today.

Surely, it's not because the capacitors and circuit boards were better built back then, right?

I would think the parts made today are better quality, especially for $1K or more expensive units.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Irvrobinson said:
"With the latest AVRs and pre-pros I doubt aging affects the sound much. Most of the circuits in the line stages are ASICs, and ASICs don't age like some discrete components."

That is interesting. I remember back in my former audiophile days when sales brochures and audio salesman would always speak so highly of "100% discrete" and "No capacitors in the signal path." That's all you heard in audiophile circles, anything that had IC op-amps was considered low quality and noisy. I'm glad these devices have improved over time.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I unplugged my expensive electronics during storms, but probably won't be as careful with the low cost 3400.

One advantage of the X3400.

 

[panteragstk]

Was your AVR 5.1 and probably didn't have any features?

Yeah, my brother still has my old Harman Kardon 5.1 AVR from about 20YR ago that still works.

I think the AVR's back then had very little internal parts and features compared to the AVRs and Pre-pros today.

Surely, it's not because the capacitors and circuit boards were better built back then, right?

I would think the parts made today are better quality, especially for $1K or more expensive units.

Yep, that's all there was when I bought it. it did have a fancy RF remote that never really worked...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I understand Ypao Volume and DEQ, they are designed to compensate for how our hearing changes as the SPL decreases.
In theory, If you are listening near reference level they may have little or no effect.
A test for this theory would be to turn the volume down by 10dB or so and see if there is a difference.

I know on all my Denon's, DEQ on vs off is significant at very high volume (90dB+).

But maybe the YPAO Volume only works at lower volume, which is useless to me since I don't care for lower volume.

 

[lovinthehd]

I know on all my Denon's, DEQ on vs off is significant at very high volume (90dB+).

But maybe the YPAO Volume only works at lower volume, which is useless to me since I don't care for lower volume.

DEQ decreases as you approach reference volume, but the way you tweaked DEQ settings....maybe you just need to find a way to tweak YPAO

 

[KEW]

I know on all my Denon's, DEQ on vs off is significant at very high volume (90dB+).

But maybe the YPAO Volume only works at lower volume, which is useless to me since I don't care for lower volume.

Do you use an offset for DEQ on your Denons?
If you can, do the comparison of YPAO volume at low volume just to determine if that is the reason for this quandry (the question of why YPAO volume seem to do nothing).

Ultimately, the conclusion you seem to be arriving at is you don't want/need any processing which kind of takes you back to the simple analog preamp you left years ago! Am I right about this? I believe you are now not using any processing from the Yamaha?

Unless Yamaha deliberately tailors their own sound to alter the recording (which we generally assume not to be a thing among major electronics manufacturers),it sounds like you may have gone full circle (NTTAWWT)!

See if you can get your hands on a analog pre-amp to compare!

 

[PENG]

Unplugging expensive electronics is the way to go. We have some pretty impressive thunderstorms in the area my primary system is in, and I wouldn't trust it to any surge suppressor I'm willing to pay for.

Some high end industrial surge suppression devices are capable of protecting against severe transients due to lightning and/or the resulting utility circuit breakers auto re-closing multiple times (usually twice, in sort intervals). I used to manage the electrical group of a water treatment equipment manufacturer and we did use some high end suppressors to protect the programmable controllers and other electronic measurement devices. They were expensive, like hundred of dollars each. I remember even considering one that was as expensive as the CX-A5100, iirc it was around C$2,000 each but that's 18-20 years ago. Electrical/electronic gear do get better and cost less over time, so by now I can probably grab one of those for under $300, still, no way I would spend that much on one device. I would stick with unplugging now and then, and if I missed, the odds are good that I won't get hit anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

maybe you just need to find a way to tweak YPAO

you don't need any processing which kind of takes you back to the simple analog preamp you left years ago! I believe you are now not using any processing from the Yamaha?

Unless Yamaha deliberately tailors their own sound to alter the recording (which we generally assume not to be a thing among major electronics manufacturers),it sounds like you may have gone full circle (NTTAWWT)!

Well, actually I just boosted the subs manually on the Yamaha and it got me the sound I wanted.

So now I'm glad that YPAO Volume didn't do anything.

Now I have the sound that I wanted without any kind of EQ or DSP. It's a win-win for me. It's more pure that way.

So, yes, my official story is that now I don't need or use any kind of EQ/DSP/Processing. Just simple direct discrete mode and good old bass!

 

[PENG]

I know on all my Denon's, DEQ on vs off is significant at very high volume (90dB+).

But maybe the YPAO Volume only works at lower volume, which is useless to me since I don't care for lower volume.

You must be kidding, or tweaking I remember trying to listen at reference level and in fact DEQ effect became negligible.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You must be kidding, or tweaking I remember trying to listen at reference level and in fact DEQ effect became negligible.

Well, remember that with Audyssey, when you increase the Trim levels (like by +5dB), the "Reference Level" is no longer the same. This will increase the DEQ effects. So my typical volume for movies is -30.0dB and it's LOUD. Some movies like Blade Runner 2049 is TOO LOUD when the volume knob is at -30.0. I had to decrease the volume to -35.0.

So that's my on my Denon's, DEQ is working at the volume of -30.0, even though it's actually very loud since I increased the trim levels.

 

[KEW]

Well, actually I just boosted the subs manually on the Yamaha and it got me the sound I wanted.

So now I'm glad that YPAO Volume didn't do anything.

Now I have the sound that I wanted without any kind of EQ or DSP. It's a win-win for me. It's more pure that way.

So are you going to return the Yamaha and find a simple (as in extremely reliable) analog preamp?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So are you going to return the Yamaha and find a simple (as in extremely reliable) analog preamp?

No, because I still need something to decode the surround sound (DTS-HD MA, TrueHD) and manage the bass (Subs).

One time I tried a $300 sound card that decoded DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD and output via PCM to my Denon. I remember getting it to work on the movie "Watchmen". Unfortunately, it didn't sound very good. Bitstream sounded much better.

So I'm not sure about PC doing that decoding and bass management.

I don't know.

What I do know is, I am able to get this Yamaha pre-pro to sound great. And I don't want to change that.

 

[KEW]

No, because I still need something to decode the surround sound (DTS-HD MA, TrueHD) and manage the bass (Subs).

One time I tried a $300 sound card that decoded DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD and output via PCM to my Denon. I remember getting it to work on the movie "Watchmen". Unfortunately, it didn't sound very good. Bitstream sounded much better.

So I'm not sure about PC doing that decoding and bass management.

I don't know.

What I do know is, I am able to get this Yamaha pre-pro to sound great. And I don't want to change that.

Your response reminds me that since you are doing processing you really don't need great reliability!
I think it is naive to think that the current formats will not be replaced by something worth adopting over the next 20 years. I'd say 10-15 years is absolute tops before a pre-processor becomes obsolete (unless someone's going out of their way to be stubborn about it)! And there is plenty of room to improve on HDMI (let's hope) over the next decade!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your response reminds me that since you are doing processing you really don't need great reliability!
I think it is naive to think that the current formats will not be replaced by something worth adopting over the next 20 years. I'd say 10-15 years is absolute tops before a pre-processor becomes obsolete (unless someone's going out of their way to be stubborn about it)! And there is plenty of room to improve on HDMI (let's hope) over the next decade!

I'm all for improvement.

What would replace the Pre-pros?

A more simple PC-based design that we could build ourselves like putting together PCs today?

 

[PENG]

Hypothetical: You have a receiver or preamp/power amp that is 20 years old.

Does time/age affect the sound? If so, how?

For receiver, ask about my AVR-3805 in 6 years. For preamp/power amp, I only just recapped my Marantz SC-7/SM-7 (about 90 caps in total) last year when they were 38 years old. There were no visible sign of failure and I could not say it sounded any better after. To be fair though, that pair of preamp/amp had been idling for probably 10-15 years when my brother handed them down to me. Before that they were driving some hungry AR3a speakers most of the time. Other than that I did have an Adcom GFA555 that lost one channel after a little over 20 years of use. No sign of deterioration either prior to losing that one channel, in fact I continue to use it for the center channel for a couple of years until I ran out of space.

 

[PENG]

Well, remember that with Audyssey, when you increase the Trim levels (like by +5dB),the "Reference Level" is no longer the same. This will increase the DEQ effects. So my typical volume for movies is -30.0dB and it's LOUD. Some movies like Blade Runner 2049 is TOO LOUD when the volume knob is at -30.0. I had to decrease the volume to -35.0.

So that's my on my Denon's, DEQ is working at the volume of -30.0, even though it's actually very loud since I increased the trim levels.

Okay, so you are going by the volume position and the level adjust/trims instead of a spl meter. Typically speaking, after running Audyssey, you don't get to reference level from you main seat until you crank the volume to 0, the maximum level adjust is +12 dB. So while I understand -30 is loud for you, but even if you set your levels to +12, -30+12= -18, you are no where near reference level from your seat.

Now, there is a worst case scenario, that is, if Audyssey had to set your level adjusts for every channel to -12 in order to get you reference level at volume 0, then if you still adjust the levels to +12, then you would have short change DEQ by a total of 24 dB, in that case you still need to crank the volume up to -30+24 or -6, to get reference level. So that's why you are feeling the DEQ effect, because you were not actually listening at 85 dB at you main seat.