The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[PENG]

I'm all for improvement.

What would replace the Pre-pros?

A more simple PC-based design that we could build ourselves like putting together PCs today?

I asked my self the same questions many time recently because I wanted the convenience of 4K pass through and have the option to try using some of the latest features. I considered the CX-A5100 but I prefer Audyssey, the devil I know, so I looked at the AV7703/4, but after studying the specs and some bench results I realized there wouldn't be any gain for spending much more than even the AVR-X4400H.

It seems to me the 4400's price won't come down soon enough. and I really doubt I would ever need 2 more channels, so I reluctantly settle for the 3400. I will be moving it into the HT room this weekend. If it sounds as good as (I am quite sure it will), it is in the stereo system, it will be in the HT room for only 3 to 5 years because from this point on it shouldn't hurt much to replace it with it with a X3900H or even a X3700H/X4700H due to the more favorable WAF.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

For receiver, ask about my AVR-3805 in 6 years. For preamp/power amp, I only just recapped my Marantz SC-7/SM-7 (about 90 caps in total) last year when they were 38 years old. There were no visible sign of failure and I could not say it sounded any better after. To be fair though, that pair of preamp/amp had been idling for probably 10-15 years when my brother handed them down to me. Before that they were driving some hungry AR3a speakers most of the time. Other than that I did have an Adcom GFA555 that lost one channel after a little over 20 years of use. No sign of deterioration either prior to losing that one channel, in fact I continue to use it for the center channel for a couple of years until I ran out of space.

I remember the Marantz SC-7/SM-7, they were both gorgeous. Well worth the restoration. As far as replacement caps, did you use 105c Nichicon or Panasonic or do you remember?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, so you are going by the volume position and the level adjust/trims instead of a spl meter. Typically speaking, after running Audyssey, you don't get to reference level from you main seat until you crank the volume to 0, the maximum level adjust is +12 dB. So while I understand -30 is loud for you, but even if you set your levels to +12, -30+12= -18, you are no where near reference level from you seat.

Now, there is a worst case scenario, that is, if Audyssey had to set your level adjusts for every channel to -12 in order to get you reference level at volume 0, then if you still adjust the levels to +12, then you would have short change DEQ by a total of 24 dB, in that case you still need to crank the volume up to -30+24 or -6, to get reference level. So that's why you are feeling the DEQ effect, because you were not actually listening at 85 dB at you main seat.

But it sure sounds extremely loud and measures a lot louder than 85dB, but that's with 2.5 or 5.5Ch.

 

[PENG]

But it sure sounds extremely loud and measures a lot louder than 85dB, but that's with 2.5 or 5.5Ch.

THX's reference level is for per channel and "average" not peak. "Peak" could be all over the map, but up to 105 dB.

 

[PENG]

I remember the Marantz SC-7/SM-7, they were both gorgeous. Well worth the restoration. As far as replacement caps, did you use 105c Nichicon or Panasonic or do you remember?

Just 85 deg C for the big ones, $74 each and there are 4 of them, ouch! The originals were only 85 deg C, Nippon's. Many of the smaller ones were Elna's.

These were the originals, I didn't take pictures of the new ones. They were of the same values but physically smaller if I remember right, being newer.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Irvrobinson said:
"With the latest AVRs and pre-pros I doubt aging affects the sound much. Most of the circuits in the line stages are ASICs, and ASICs don't age like some discrete components."

That is interesting. I remember back in my former audiophile days when sales brochures and audio salesman would always speak so highly of "100% discrete" and "No capacitors in the signal path." That's all you heard in audiophile circles, anything that had IC op-amps was considered low quality and noisy. I'm glad these devices have improved over time.

The latest op-amps are, IMO, the ticket to achieve the best combination of low distortion and low noise for anything but the output stage of an amplifier. Look at the measurements Stereophile did on the Benchmark Media DAC3. The TI op-amps they use to drive the analog outputs are so good the random noise floor at the analog outputs was measured as 160db below the fundamental frequencies. That's better than anyone could dream about with discrete circuits. For people used to specs from old discrete stuff, the measurements are almost difficult to believe.

(There has been some chatter in the past from the negative-feedback haters, that these op-amps cause time domain distortion or whatever. They say op-amp ICs use a lot of negative feedback, so they have to suck. Their evidence isn't convincing to me. MQA's "smearing" argument and that they undo it smells like similar story telling. All I can say is, smear on.)

 

[<eargiant]

For preamp/power amp, I only just recapped my Marantz SC-7/SM-7 (about 90 caps in total) last year when they were 38 years old. There were no visible sign of failure and I could not say it sounded any better after.

Did you measure the amp & pre-amp on the bench before and after the restore (or re-cap)?

Did you only replace e-caps or did you replace any transistors, diodes, resistors, relays, trimpots or other parts?

 

[PENG]

The latest op-amps are, IMO, the ticket to achieve the best combination of low distortion and low noise for anything but the output stage of an amplifier. Look at the measurements Stereophile did on the Benchmark Media DAC3. The TI op-amps they use to drive the analog outputs are so good the random noise floor at the analog outputs was measured as 160db below the fundamental frequencies. That's better than anyone could dream about with discrete circuits. For people used to specs from old discrete stuff, the measurements are almost difficult to believe.

(There has been some chatter in the past from the negative-feedback haters, that these op-amps cause time domain distortion or whatever. They say op-amp ICs use a lot of negative feedback, so they have to suck. Their evidence isn't convincing to me. MQA's "smearing" argument and that they undo it smells like similar story telling. All I can say is, smear on.)

Agreed, it's about time people embrace science more. Marantz gave in to audiophile critics and upgraded their high end prepro's HDAM with discrete modules but I think they could have done better simply replacing the OPAs and any other chips with better ones. Even then, they might have been able to yield better measurements on the bench and not audible differences. It is almost funny reading the reviews by reviewers who know about the HDAM upgrade.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So internal parts (caps, chips, circuits, etc.) have improved and are better than before, yet reliability has declined for both AVRs and Pre-pros (not for analog amps and preamps) ?

 

[Irvrobinson]

So internal parts (caps, chips, circuits, etc.) have improved and are better than before, yet reliability has declined for both AVRs and Pre-pros (not for analog amps and preamps) ?

I don't agree that caps have improved. I also believe reliability has declined partially because complexity has dramatically increased. As parts counts go up the mean time between failures goes down unless you significantly increase parts quality, and I doubt that's happening. I think for most people an 11 channel mid-to-high-end AVR will be the most complex product in their home beyond a new vehicle.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

It still makes you wonder if its worth keeping and upgrading older amplifiers. It might be best to just sell them for whatever the market will offer you.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Discrete? Op-Amps?

Here is a good read from the famous NwAvGuy (the father of the O2 headphone amp) who unfortunately went missing in action.

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html

 

[panteragstk]

Well, remember that with Audyssey, when you increase the Trim levels (like by +5dB), the "Reference Level" is no longer the same. This will increase the DEQ effects. So my typical volume for movies is -30.0dB and it's LOUD. Some movies like Blade Runner 2049 is TOO LOUD when the volume knob is at -30.0. I had to decrease the volume to -35.0.

So that's my on my Denon's, DEQ is working at the volume of -30.0, even though it's actually very loud since I increased the trim levels.

So with my Denon I sit at -14 to -12 depending on the movie. Peaks can get VERY loud in my room, but for normal dialog and such it's the perfect volume.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So with my Denon I sit at -14 to -12 depending on the movie. Peaks can get VERY loud in my room, but for normal dialog and such it's the perfect volume.

Yeah, DEQ probably isn't doing much when the volume is at -12.0, compared to a volume of -30.0.

I wonder just how much bass was actually boosted in my system. Probably a lot. That's why I loved it so much.

 

[Mikado463]

I don't agree that caps have improved. I also believe reliability has declined partially because complexity has dramatically increased. As parts counts go up the mean time between failures goes down unless you significantly increase parts quality, and I doubt that's happening. I think for most people an 11 channel mid-to-high-end AVR will be the most complex product in their home beyond a new vehicle.

Just another reason Irv I prefer the simplicity of quality separates in a 2 channel set up.

'Straight wire with gain baby' !

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just another reason Irv I prefer the simplicity of quality separates in a 2 channel set up.

'Straight wire with gain baby' !

Pure Analog 2CH preamps definitely take home the prize in the category of simplicity and reliability.

I don't know about some of these digital 2Ch preamps like Parasound Halo - I've heard too many complaints on the forum about the volume pot thing.

 

[Andrein]

Okay, so you are going by the volume position and the level adjust/trims instead of a spl meter. Typically speaking, after running Audyssey, you don't get to reference level from you main seat until you crank the volume to 0, the maximum level adjust is +12 dB. So while I understand -30 is loud for you, but even if you set your levels to +12, -30+12= -18, you are no where near reference level from you seat.

Now, there is a worst case scenario, that is, if Audyssey had to set your level adjusts for every channel to -12 in order to get you reference level at volume 0, then if you still adjust the levels to +12, then you would have short change DEQ by a total of 24 dB, in that case you still need to crank the volume up to -30+24 or -6, to get reference level. So that's why you are feeling the DEQ effect, because you were not actually listening at 85 dB at you main seat.

Does Audessey measure just 1 speaker at the time? So when watching the movie you prob need to add some db according to your setup?

 

[PENG]

Does Audessey measure just 1 speaker at the time? So when watching the movie you prob need to add some db according to your setup?

It measures one channel at a time. Sorry I don't understand your second question.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Common problem..
The Direct TV box is not HDMI certified...
All is well if connected directly to an HD display by HDMI, but multiple handshake issues when connected through an AVR with an HDMI repeater circuit..
Work around is HDMI to > HD display, optical > AVR...


Just my $0.02..

I just connected my DTV receiver HDMI to my Yamaha CX-A5100 and it works perfectly.

 

[M Code]

I just connected my DTV receiver HDMI to my Yamaha CX-A5100 and it works perfectly.

Depends largely upon the brand of AVR/processor... Yamaha is the only major audio brand that goes through the rigorous HDMI certification process. Most brands self-certify for HDMI to save $ and have a faster to market delivery schedule. But fail to test their products adequately for HDMI interoperability between other brands HDMI components so when connecting up to an AVR or processor is hit or miss..

This is a primary reason we sell/install a lot of Yamaha HDMI products, since we guarantee our installs for 5 years makes little sense to save a few $ if we have to send out a tech on a trouble shooting call... However I will concede in the later generations of branded HDMI products they do seem to work better together than compared to the earlier days of HDMI...

Just my $0.02...