The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Mikado463]

This power amp depicted here was featured on a YouTube Channel about two weeks ago. As I understand it the thing weighs 500 pounds. I'm sure the conquest like experience of any buying it will have a nervonic out of body feeling of ecstasy followed by withdrawal, until another audiophile trophy is within sight.

It must have dissipated into thin air ......... I don't see it ?

 

[Verdinut]

If the insides of all pre-pros look more like this ATI amp, then I would be more convinced that it's better than AVRs:

If the insides of a pre-pro looked more like that ATI amp, I would wonder what is the need for the big toroidal transformer in there.

 

[Mikado463]

If the insides of a pre-pro looked more like that ATI amp, I would wonder what is the need for the big toroidal transformer in there.

LOL, I thought the same thing........pre-amps / amps, two different animals.

 

[jsc1979]

I just looked at those d agostino amps. The relentless monoblock weighs 485lbs. Holy schnikies. I thought my monolith 7X was heavy. It’s a featherweight. Lol

 

[Mikado463]

I just looked at those d agostino amps. The relentless monoblock weighs 485lbs. Holy schnikies. I thought my monolith 7X was heavy. It’s a featherweight. Lol

Yes , it's a beast, I think the one pictured here in this thread is the 'Momentum' , a mere lightweight at only 95 lbs !

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Really quick before I go to bed - I’ve been playing around with the Yamaha CX-A5100 Pre-Pro tonight.

I’ve been extremely impressed!

YPAO Volume appears to be as awesome as Audyssey Dynamic EQ.

My setting:
1. “Straight” Mode - Bypass all DSP (Stereo Mode is DSP)
2. YPAO “Through” (Bypass Room EQ, except for subs)
3. YPAO Volume On- EQ Bypass all CH, except Subs - must have Sub EQ
4. ADRC Off (don’t want Dynamic Range compression)
5. Pure Direct off - if on, this would Bypass EQ to everything including Subs

Just awesome sound!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Come to think of it, maybe that's not the piano bench creaking and Evo just let a couple slip...



I don't know why you're asking me. Just because I hear it doesn't mean I know how or why it occurs. I do know there are significant design differences between these amps so maybe that has to do something with it.

You might want to PM Gene with your question because I think he'd hear the difference also even though I'm sure the X1 would measure beautifully on his AP as did the A-S801. He's definitely more qualified to answer your question than I am. This is what he said back in 2013.

"As someone who has over 10 years of audio design experience and about 15 years measuring and analyzing and most importantly LISTENING, I can tell you my experience even in controlled listening tests is amps can and do sound different even if they measure well and aren't driven beyond their means. The degree of audibility differences depend on a lot of factors, including loudspeaker load, quality of the loudspeakers, room acoustics, source material, etc. "

Gene DellaSalla

I'm asking you because you're making a very specific claim, you've previously professed technical knowledge, so I was wondering why you thought a piano bench sounded differently on two different amplifiers.

I was a participant in the thread you're pulling Gene's quote from. I happen to agree with him, though I do think that differences between amplifiers have gotten more rare over time as electronic components, design tools, and manufacturing techniques have improved. On the other hand, Gene has never mentioned so specific an instance as you just did, and I've never experienced something similar from high quality amplifiers either. You're making an extraordinary claim about audio reproduction, which is pretty well understood, so I was just wondering if you had a theory that could explain why you heard what you think you heard.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If the insides of a pre-pro looked more like that ATI amp, I would wonder what is the need for the big toroidal transformer in there.

Smarta$$.

I meant the “clean” look of it, instead of the tons of parts horseshoed inside a single box.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Really quick before I go to bed - I’ve been playing around with the Yamaha CX-A5100 Pre-Pro tonight.

I’ve been extremely impressed!

YPAO Volume appears to be as awesome as Audyssey Dynamic EQ.

My setting:
1. “Straight” Sound Mode
2. YPAO “Through” (Bypass Room EQ)
3. YPAO Volume On
4. ADRC Off

Just awesome sound!

Interesting. Thank you for sharing your quick review. I always wondered about their proprietary EQ.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing your quick review. I always wondered about their proprietary EQ.

I’ve been listening to more music and watching The Expanse TV show this morning on the CX-A5100.

Yesterday was no fluke. This thing is for real.

It sounds every bit as awesome as listening to Audyssey DEQ on my Denon AVP-A1HD!

I love the fact that I can Bypass Room EQ (Through Mode) altogether and still get YPAO Volume.

With Audyssey, you can Bypass Room EQ for the front L/R speakers, but the other speakers still get Room EQ, which is fine because it still sounds great. But I prefer to Bypass Room EQ altogether and still get YPAO Volume. Maybes it’s just psychological.

Another significant difference is the Center dialogue for movies. With Denon, I had to boost the Center speaker from 3dB to 6dB to get clear dialogue depending on the movie. With the CX-A5100, the Center is level-matched with all the speakers, and yet the Dialogue is so loud and clear! I don’t have to boost the center at all.

Maybe Yamaha does the same thing as DTS and automatically boost the Center by 3 or 4 dB? I don’t know. But all I know is that my Center is the same level as all the speakers in the setup and yet the dialogue is crystal clear and loud even when the actors whisper!

I truly thought I would listen to this Yamaha and return it. But now I want to keep it!

And if @M Code data is correct on Yamaha being more reliable as a brand, that’s a plus! I hope it lasts 20 YR, not 10YR like my $7500 AVP-A1HD before failing.

Another thing, the rear panel of the CX-A5100 looks naked compared to the Denon.

 

[snakeeyes]

I’ve been listening to more music and watching The Expanse TV show this morning on the CX-A5100.

Yesterday was no fluke. This thing is for real.

It sounds every bit as awesome as listening to Audyssey DEQ on my Denon AVP-A1HD!

I love the fact that I can Bypass Room EQ (Through Mode) altogether and still get YPAO Volume.

With Audyssey, you can Bypass Room EQ for the front L/R speakers, but the other speakers still get Room EQ, which is fine because it still sounds great. But I prefer to Bypass Room EQ altogether and still get YPAO Volume. Maybes it’s just psychological.

Another significant difference is the Center dialogue for movies. With Denon, I had to boost the Center speaker from 3dB to 6dB to get clear dialogue depending on the movie. With the CX-A5100, the Center is level-matched with all the speakers, and yet the Dialogue is so loud and clear! I don’t have to boost the center at all.

Maybe Yamaha does the same thing as DTS and automatically boost the Center by 3 or 4 dB? I don’t know. But all I know is that my Center is the same level as all the speakers in the setup and yet the dialogue is crystal clear and loud even when the actors whisper!

I truly thought I would listen to this Yamaha and return it. But now I want to keep it!

And if @M Code data is correct on Yamaha being more reliable as a brand, that’s a plus! I hope it lasts 20 YR, not 10YR like my $7500 AVP-A1HD before failing.

Another thing, the rear panel of the CX-A5100 looks naked compared to the Denon.

Ya I knew there was a reason Gene had one! Did you also get the matching amp? Or are you using other amps? And which speakers do have hooked up currently? RBH?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I just looked at the CX-A5100 at the Yamaha website, it looks like a fine machine.

 

[PENG]

I’ve been listening to more music and watching The Expanse TV show this morning on the CX-A5100.

Yesterday was no fluke. This thing is for real.

It sounds every bit as awesome as listening to Audyssey DEQ on my Denon AVP-A1HD!

I love the fact that I can Bypass Room EQ (Through Mode) altogether and still get YPAO Volume.

With Audyssey, you can Bypass Room EQ for the front L/R speakers, but the other speakers still get Room EQ, which is fine because it still sounds great. But I prefer to Bypass Room EQ altogether and still get YPAO Volume. Maybes it’s just psychological.

Another significant difference is the Center dialogue for movies. With Denon, I had to boost the Center speaker from 3dB to 6dB to get clear dialogue depending on the movie. With the CX-A5100, the Center is level-matched with all the speakers, and yet the Dialogue is so loud and clear! I don’t have to boost the center at all.

Maybe Yamaha does the same thing as DTS and automatically boost the Center by 3 or 4 dB? I don’t know. But all I know is that my Center is the same level as all the speakers in the setup and yet the dialogue is crystal clear and loud even when the actors whisper!

I truly thought I would listen to this Yamaha and return it. But now I want to keep it!

And if @M Code data is correct on Yamaha being more reliable as a brand, that’s a plus! I hope it lasts 20 YR, not 10YR like my $7500 AVP-A1HD before failing.

Another thing, the rear panel of the CX-A5100 looks naked compared to the Denon.

To use DEQ you have to run Audyssey, so I assume to use YPAO volume you have to run YPAO first right?

 

[<eargiant]

I'm asking you because you're making a very specific claim, you've previously professed technical knowledge, so I was wondering why you thought a piano bench sounded differently on two different amplifiers.

I was a participant in the thread you're pulling Gene's quote from. I happen to agree with him, though I do think that differences between amplifiers have gotten more rare over time as electronic components, design tools, and manufacturing techniques have improved. On the other hand, Gene has never mentioned so specific an instance as you just did, and I've never experienced something similar from high quality amplifiers either. You're making an extraordinary claim about audio reproduction, which is pretty well understood, so I was just wondering if you had a theory that could explain why you heard what you think you heard.

I don't know if I'd use such a strong word as "professed" but whatever...

As far as I'm concerned the only time 2 different integrated amplifiers will sound the same while driving ALL possible speaker combinations is if they are designed and constructed exactly the same way (or very, very similarly). It's OK if you disagree with that. You have your set of experiences and perspective and I have mine.

I also wouldn't say it's an "extraordinary" claim at all. It's no different than what Gene said. As for Gene not being "specific" as to what exactly he heard, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he didn't specify what the sound was, whether it was a chair creak, a bass note or a human voice (or all of the above). He's probably smart enough (unlike me) not to touch the third rail of this forum. Didn't he also suggest somewhere that anyone who thinks all amps sound the same should to go out there and listen some more? He has obviously heard differences and those differences would have had to be the way a sound is reproduced. So while you say you have never experienced such a thing, he clearly has.

I get a kick out of this one. Everyone likes to bring up the fact that audio amplification "is pretty well understood" (and it is) as if this means that all manufacturers and units out there will yield the same result when driving the same speaker as long as they have proper specs, are driven within limits, yada-yada-yada. It's well understood and manufacturers are never forced to make concessions that affect performance based on other factors. Hogwash.

Also, I'd like to correct you, it's not "what you think you heard" it's what I know I heard. You were not in my room with these 2 integrated amps driving the same revealing speakers so you don't know enough to say or even imply that. Not that this is directly related to the sound difference I heard between the 2 integrated amps but I suppose if I told you that the A-S801 has more audible hiss than the X1 you'd say that this was also something I "think" I'm hearing.

A while back (on a different forum) I read that the Yamaha A-S801 was the quietest amp the individual had ever heard (and he had reasonable experience with amps). When I got the Yamaha I was curious about that claim. I never got around to it but I recently put it to the test. I level matched the A-S801 and the 38 year old (but refurbished) X1, paused the source and placed my ear within a few inches of the tweeter and I can hear hiss. With the A-S801 it was audible. Sure, that's normal and expected. But when I do the same with the X1 all I hear is dead silence... and I mean DEAD SILENCE as in it's turned off silence. If I take it one step further and raise the output of the X1 even higher than the A-S801- still dead silence. Even with my ear an inch or two away from the tweeter. The point I'm making is not that I will hear that while playing music but that the newer Yamaha A-S801 is not as quiet as the X1. I don't care whether or not anyone thinks that's necessary but quieter is better, period. It is truer to the source. What happened to the well understood part? It wouldn't hurt to have a quieter amp so why would Yamaha not choose to make the A-S801 as quiet as possible? Or even to equal what a flagship integrated was able to do 38 years ago. Are there any other design attributes of the A-S801 that did not fully employ all of the "pretty well understood" audio reproduction principles? Could this be another case of the consumer getting "good enough"? ALL design choices have an effect.

P.S. I think the Yamaha A-S801 is an excellent amplifier and enjoy it quite a bit in my second system but I am under no illusions that it is up there with the best of the best.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ya I knew there was a reason Gene had one! Did you also get the matching amp? Or are you using other amps? And which speakers do have hooked up currently? RBH?

I might be more tempted to buy the $2500 Yamaha MX-A5000 amp if it were at least 150W x 10Ch Driven into 8 ohms and 250W x 10Ch driven into 4 ohms 20Hz-20kHz @ 0.1% THD.

But since it’s only 150W x 2Ch driven with very underwhelming power measurements, I will not be tempted.

Instead, I will be using the ATI AT2005 amp to power the top part of my five RBH SX-T2/R towers and the ATI AT3005 amp to power the bottom part of those towers.

BTW I didn’t realize Gene got the CX-A5100. It’s purely a coincidence that both Gene and I went from the Denon AVP-A1HDCI to the Yamaha CX-A5100. I also had idea he used to owned the RBH T2/R towers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To use DEQ you have to run Audyssey, so I assume to use YPAO volume you have to run YPAO first right?

I’m not sure it’s a prerequisite. But maybe it is.

I did apply YPAO first, then changed the YPAO to “Through” (Bypass), and still was able to use YPAO Volume.

I guess it’s the same way as applying Audyssey first, then set Audyssey to Bypass L/R.

I don’t think it would have made a difference, but I always thought and said I wish Denon would allow me to Bypass Audyssey completely and just use DEQ.

So I was very happy to find out that Yamaha allowed me to Bypass YPAO completely and just use YPAO-Vol.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just looked at the CX-A5100 at the Yamaha website, it looks like a fine machine.

The CX-A5100 is 30 LBS vs 60 LBS on the Denon AVP-A1HD, and I welcome the huge weight difference and the significantly less cluttered rear panel of the CX-A5100.

The only thing that turns me off about Yamaha is the “millions” of available DSP modes. I abhor DSP in general. I guess nobody is perfect.

I love the YPAO Volume.

 

[panteragstk]

The CX-A5100 is 30 LBS vs 60 LBS on the Denon AVP-A1HD, and I welcome the huge weight difference and the significantly less cluttered rear panel of the CX-A5100.

The only thing that turns me off about Yamaha is the “millions” of available DSP modes. I abhor DSP in general. I guess nobody is perfect.

I love the YPAO Volume.

You planning to keep it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You planning to keep it?

Yes I am.

My AVP-A1HD is paperweight now - I’ve had to keep it powered on 24/7 just to keep the volume output high enough. If I don’t, then it barely has any volume.

So the CX-A5100 will replace it.

 

[lovinthehd]

To use DEQ you have to run Audyssey, so I assume to use YPAO volume you have to run YPAO first right?

FWIW I have an Onkyo that has Audyssey XT but can use DEQ without Audyssey. For my Denons I must run Audyssey....