The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Irvrobinson]

It's well understood and manufactures are never forced to make concessions that affect performance based on other factors. Hogwash.

I never said there aren't implementation differences; there most certainly are, and they're often measurable.

 

[panteragstk]

FWIW I have an Onkyo that has Audyssey XT but can use DEQ without Audyssey. For my Denons I must run Audyssey....

I haven't checked that particular setting ,but my onkyo with xt is quite different than my demon with xt. I'll have to see if mine will do deq with audyssey disabled.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yes I am.

My AVP-A1HD is paperweight now - I’ve had to keep it powered on 24/7 just to keep the volume output high enough. If I don’t, then it barely has any volume.

So the CX-A5100 will replace it.

Congrats!

 

[Verdinut]

Yes I am.

My AVP-A1HD is paperweight now - I’ve had to keep it powered on 24/7 just to keep the volume output high enough. If I don’t, then it barely has any volume.

So the CX-A5100 will replace it.

It really sounds like an excellent choice considering the price and comparing with what you must have paid for the Denon. In addition, you don't have to break your back when moving it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It really sounds like an excellent choice considering the price and comparing with what you must had paid for the Denon. In addition, you don't have to break your back when moving it.

That's right.
Headed in the right direction.

 

[PENG]

I’m not sure it’s a prerequisite. But maybe it is.

I did apply YPAO first, then changed the YPAO to “Through” (Bypass), and still was able to use YPAO Volume.

I guess it’s the same way as applying Audyssey first, then set Audyssey to Bypass L/R.

I don’t think it would have made a difference, but I always thought and said I wish Denon would allow me to Bypass Audyssey completely and just use DEQ.

So I was very happy to find out that Yamaha allowed me to Bypass YPAO completely and just use YPAO-Vol.

I suspect you need to run YPAO first in order to use YPAO volume and then bypass YPAO for all channels except the subwoofer channels. Otherwise it wouldn't be called YPAO volume.

Congratulations! You should still get the AVP repaired, it doesn't sound like a series problem. Are there any authorized repair shop nearby?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I suspect you need to run YPAO first in order to use YPAO volume and then bypass YPAO for all channels except the subwoofer channels. Otherwise it wouldn't be called YPAO volume.

Congratulations! You should still get the AVP repaired, it doesn't sound like a series problem. Are there any authorized repair shop nearby?

Good point about YPAO Volume.

Long story short, my AVP was sent in to the main Denon factory and they couldn't repair it. Twice!

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't checked that particular setting ,but my onkyo with xt is quite different than my demon with xt. I'll have to see if mine will do deq with audyssey disabled.

I may have to experiment with actually running Audyssey vs simply turning it off as to DEQ. I know it works with Audyssey off, but not sure I tried it without running Audyssey at all....it's been a long time since I experimented with it on the Onkyo.....and not keen to wipe out the Audyssey run just to find out since I can't simply reload it...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

LOL, I thought the same thing........pre-amps / amps, two different animals.

Actually my Denon pre-pro has 2 torroid transformers. It has everything but the kitchen sink horseshoed into the little box.

 

[PENG]

I may have to experiment with actually running Audyssey vs simply turning it off as to DEQ. I know it works with Audyssey off, but not sure I tried it without running Audyssey at all....it's been a long time since I experimented with it on the Onkyo.....and not keen to wipe out the Audyssey run just to find out since I can't simply reload it...

That's one good thing about the MultEq editor app, you can simply load any of the stored files.

 

[KEW]

I don’t think it would have made a difference, but I always thought and said I wish Denon would allow me to Bypass Audyssey completely and just use DEQ.

So I was very happy to find out that Yamaha allowed me to Bypass YPAO completely and just use YPAO-Vol.

I get what you are saying, but I might think the better solution would be to retain room EQ for the subs (or even better below a frequency you could specify, say 300Hz).Have you been using any type of EQ with your subs?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I get what you are saying, but I might think the ideal would be to retain room EQ for the subs (or even better below a frequency you could specify, say 300Hz).Have you been using any type of EQ with your subs?

Just DEQ and YPAO Volume.

As PENG said, I think DEQ and YOAO retain the Sub EQ even when we Bypass the EQ for the other speakers (Bypass L/R and Through modes).

 

[KEW]

Just DEQ and YPAO Volume.

As PENG said, I think DEQ and YOAO retain the Sub EQ even when we Bypass the EQ for the other speakers (Bypass L/R and Through modes).

This is a point of confusion!
"Sub EQ" (as an element of Audyssey XT32) is actually not EQ at all. It is the process of level and phase matching two subs prior to running them (as if they were a single sub) through the Audyssey EQ process.

Or do you mean Sub EQ as in RoomEQ applied to the sub?

I missed PENGs comment on YPAO retaining Sub EQ in the through mode!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Or do you mean Sub EQ as in RoomEQ applied to the sub?

I missed PENGs comment on YPAO retaining Sub EQ in the through mode!

Yes, Room EQ applied to the sub.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's one good thing about the MultEq editor app, you can simply load any of the stored files.

Or XT32 in my Denon 4520 that I can store Audyssey calibrations for in my computer, altho sure would be nice to have the MultEQ editor work with older models....

 

[PENG]

Good point about YPAO Volume.

Long story short, my AVP was sent in to the main Denon factory and they couldn't repair it. Twice!

For such a one of its kind AVP, you should insist on talking to someone in their design department who is familiar with the AVP's circuity. It's a big company, so you know the drill, it takes some effort/strategy to be able to talk to the right guy. To me, it sounds like some temperature compensation related part of the circuit has failed in certain way.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For such a one of its kind AVP, you should insist on talking to someone in their design department who is familiar with the AVP's circuity. It's a big company, so you know the drill, it takes some effort/strategy to be able to talk to the right guy. To me, it sounds like some temperature compensation related part of the circuit has failed in certain way.

Well, okay, let me tell you the long version.

The first time that it was sent in (under Best Buy Geek Squad for $35 shipping),Denon said they had to replace some Audio-Video Board and some other circuits. They said it would cost me $1,000. I said yes! So I was charged $1,000.

I was excited, but when I hooked it up, the same exact problem occurred!

SO I spoke to the GM at Best Buy. He said to ship it back to Denon under Best Buy Store warranty. I was excited because now Denon might be able to replace just about anything for free to me since it is now under Store warranty!

But then they said they couldn’t figure it out. I asked them on the phone if they could ask if there were someone who might have worked a lot on this expensive $7500 AVP-A1. They said they would ask. Several days later, they said the same as before.

So it was sent back to Denon factory twice and they had the chance to ask around (I hope). It was under Store warranty the 2nd time so they could have replaced whatever they needed to.

But still they could not.

The B.B. GM gave me a full refund $1,000. So at least I didn’t have to pay anything for it. He was very nice and offered me discounts because of this fiasco.

So a huge thanks to Best Buy service! Thank you Best Buy!

I also love Best Buy’s 24-month 0% interest. Sure I could pay up front, but I sure feel a lot less guilty paying $75 per month. I know a lot of people who pay a lot more than that per month for TV services.

A long time ago I sent in a lower model Denon under warranty because it didn’t have any volume (I think after 2 years). I figured they could replace the amps or something. When I got it back “fixed”, there was still no volume, except this time smoke came out of the Denon and I gave up. It was a lower end model and I wanted a new unit anyway. I already lost $50 for shipping. I didn’t think those idiots could fix it anyway. That was a long time ago.

You’ve read my horror stories a long time ago about the refurbished Denon’s from 2 Denon Authorized retailers. One of the Denon’s was the AVP-A1HDCI and another was the bigger older AVR-4000 series. There were other Denon’s. None of them worked!

Guess what was wrong with the refurbished AVP-A1HDCI? No volume!

So that’s why I had no faith in Denon refurbished back then and I sure as heck don’t have any faith in them now! I have absolutely no faith in their Main Denon Repair Factory in New Jersey.

When @M Code said these things are made to be replaced, I believe it.

And that’s why I always recommend the X3000 and X4000 on sale - thinking that if you have no volume 10 YR later, you just throw it away or keep it as a home theater Decor. And buy a new X3000 or X4000 on sale.

Hey, my AVP-A1 looks great as a home theater decor. I have some memories of it.

 

[jsc1979]

I know Yamaha gets flack for not eq’ing the sub as low as XT32/sub eq. My question is, does the sub eq on the Yamaha not do as good of a job as Audyssey? Just talking about the sub portion. I’ve read it goes down to 30hz and I’ve read 62hz. Not sure which one is the right one?

I know the yammy has peq that you can modify yourself below the sub eq cutoff if you have measuring equipment.

I currently have a yammy 1030 with no sub eq and I’m wondering if I should stick with Yamaha or try a Denon/Marantz product.

 

[Bookmark]

The 5100, and 3k series I believe also, has 4 independent PEQ bands for each sub woofer. Lowest manual Freq is 15.6 Hz and highest is 250 Hz. The automatic system's lowest is 31.3 Hz although this is due to the original firmware software and likely a limitation of the supplied mike.

The 4 bands, Gains and Q can be setup via the on screen or web interface.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know Yamaha gets flack for not eq’ing the sub as low as XT32/sub eq. My question is, does the sub eq on the Yamaha not do as good of a job as Audyssey? Just talking about the sub portion. I’ve read it goes down to 30hz and I’ve read 62hz. Not sure which one is the right one?

I know the yammy has peq that you can modify yourself below the sub eq cutoff if you have measuring equipment.

I currently have a yammy 1030 with no sub eq and I’m wondering if I should stick with Yamaha or try a Denon/Marantz product.

I think overall Audyssey XT32 (Denon 4520) may have better RoomEQ and SubEQ than YPAO-64 Bit. That means the Denon X3400 receiver has better EQ than the Yamaha CX-A5100 pre-pro.

@PENG and others have posted Audyssey plots of XT32, which looked great.

But for just bass (Bypass YPAO, YPAO Volume On),I feel the bass sounds just as awesome and equal to XT32 for movies and music. But that’s just subjective. Audyssey bass Frequency plots may look better than YPAO.

With XT32, I thought FLAT sounded like Bypass. AUDYSSEY sounded a little suppressed or lifeless.

With YPAO, everything sounded different than Bypass/THROUGH. FLAT sounded way too bright. NATURAL sounded like AUDYSSEY. FRONT sounded like between NATURAL and FLAT, but maybe slightly bright. THROUGH/Bypass sounded the best to me.

I’ve heard Dirac and ARC vs Bypass. I still thought Bypass sounded best.

But with just bass, YPAO Volume “sounds” equal to my experience with XT32 DEQ. That’s the only reason I am keeping the CX-A5100. DEQ bass was my dealbreaker - no way I would buy anything that didn’t sound as good as DEQ.

BTW, the YPAO says 64-bit. Is Audyssey XT32 also 64-bit or 32-bit?