Are DACs mostly snake oil?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...did you mean that an expensive DAC will sound no better than....any...competent..DAC...such as found in the majority of mainstream amps/receivers?

That is exactly what I am saying.

Even entry level $300 AVRs (like Denon X1000s, Pioneer 831, Onkyo 646) have the AK4458 32-bit DSD DAC that has SNR of 115dB.

https://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK4458VN

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2794073-official-2017-denon-s-series-x-series-avr-owner-s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a.html

https://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/featured/audiomarketvoices/pioneer/#pioneer01

 

[Forsooth]

"...did you mean that an expensive DAC will sound no better than....any...competent..DAC...such as found in the majority of mainstream amps/receivers?"

That is exactly what I am saying.

I'd say that is pretty clear. Thanks.

I would note that I am a bit disappointed. I guess I had built up my own DAC mythology based on having read a good amount of (and wanting to believe) the hype. The bottom line is that the DACs in reputable consumer audio do a great job -- the SAME great job.

 

[jid]

How much or how litte you get out of more expensive dacs greatly depends on the pre amplifier connecting it to a reciever/surround pre usually doesnt give much if anything depending on sound mode.


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Would you mind explaining why? I would've thought for the most part pre amps run line level so the amp would make more of a difference but that is just a guess.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"...did you mean that an expensive DAC will sound no better than....any...competent..DAC...such as found in the majority of mainstream amps/receivers?"



I'd say that is pretty clear. Thanks.

I would note that I am a bit disappointed. I guess I had built up my own DAC mythology based on having read a good amount of (and wanting to believe) the hype. The bottom line is that the DACs in reputable consumer audio do a great job -- the SAME great job.

Check out The Audio Critic archives.

http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web1.htm

Bottom line - well made electronics (CD Players, Amps, Preamps, DAC) don't have "personalities".

Things that have "personalities" include speakers/subs, processors (EQ, DSP), room acoustics, and the recordings.

 

[Leemix]

Would you mind explaining why? I would've thought for the most part pre amps run line level so the amp would make more of a difference but that is just a guess.

Probably differences in the analogue parts between most multichannel and two channel pre’s. And if running room correction or other digital eq the signal would be going through ADC/DAC again.


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[TLS Guy]

No, they won't sound any better than the DAC inside a Denon X2000 series or higher model AVR.

You are absolutely correct for playback of CD, movies and routine streaming. The reason is that hopefully the correct homework has been done and the dynamics are correctly positioned. However if you are doing creative and production work then it is a different situation.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I've mentioned this before, maybe some haven't read all my posts, but if you have two DACs available to you ... maybe even you can take one home on a loan from a Bricks-And-Mortar dealer, or can take advantage of Amazon return policies, you can set up a comparison fairly easily to check for audible (not just measurable) differences (and not limited to DACs either, but you will figure it out).

Either by a direct input to a sound card, or via a microphone playing through your whole system (which in my opinion is the preferred means) play the same cut through each and run them through the Windows app

Audio Diffmaker (Liberty Instruments)

Don't adjust levels when playing each through your system.

It will sync the tracks (VERY handy feature) and create an A-B and B-A result. Any differences, if they exist will be evident when you play back either processed file. Don't expect the result to sound like music (it will most likely resemble noise) but if there truly is "no difference" the resulting tracks will be silence.

If that isn't the case, then you will have to listen to each to see which you prefer, which is the hard part, but it has it's rewards if you care about Sound Quality.

Do a Google search for the app, I don't like to create links to software because they can be hijacked.

 

[2channel lover]

is it all just bullsh*t? Or do I need to poney up for this piece of gear in my signal chain?

"do expensive DACs make any audible difference?"

Yes, but imo DACs reach a point of depreciating returns fairly quickly.

It was explained to me like so...

Great DAC + avg speakers = average sound

Great speakers + avg DAC = good SQ

Great speakers + good DAC = great SQ

Great speakers + great DAC = great SQ

If you have a source with a poor DAC (like most laptop computers, Ipods, etc.)...replacing the DAC will a higher quality one will sound better, especially with decent speakers.

At the same time, having a $5000 DAC with a pair of $1500 speakers won't sound much better than a $300 DAC with the same $1500 speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you have a source with a poor DAC (like most laptop computers, Ipods, etc.)

I agree here. That's why I always bit-stream to the AVR/Pre-pro and never let the PC do the DAC.

The only case I think an external DAC/preamp is warranted is if someone doesn't want to use an AVR.

Otherwise, even the $300 AVR from Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo have 32-bit DSD DAC that have practically perfect specs.

 

[PENG]

"do expensive DACs make any audible difference?"

Yes, but imo DACs reach a point of depreciating returns fairly quickly.

It was explained to me like so...

Great DAC + avg speakers = average sound

Great speakers + avg DAC = good SQ

Great speakers + good DAC = great SQ

Great speakers + great DAC = great SQ

If you have a source with a poor DAC (like most laptop computers, Ipods, etc.)...replacing the DAC will a higher quality one will sound better, especially with decent speakers.

At the same time, having a $5000 DAC with a pair of $1500 speakers won't sound much better than a $300 DAC with the same $1500 speakers.

Agree, except the last sentence. If I fix it for you, I would be nitpicking..

 

[jinjuku]

A decent DAC does not have to be expensive, there are a few that sell for under $100 (eg: Topping DX7 from China)

The DX7 is not under $100. It was $400.

If you are REALLY pressed for funds the under $100 DAC is the the Behringer UMC 204HD. I have it for office duties and they really hit it out of the park.

Stunning what $79 can get you. ASR benched the unit and other than being a bit light on the output levels, just stellar performance for the $$.

 

[2channel lover]

Agree, except the last sentence. If I fix it for you, I would be nitpicking..

My wife has harden me to nitpicking....

That sentence may not have been worded right, but it came from this experience...back when I was demoing the new 800 series D3 line, I sat in a demo with a gentleman that was interested in upgrading his DAC...the sales guy was showing him two external DACs...one was a Marantz unit, and the other was much more expensive (over $2k) ...Schiit.

I'd rather not mentioned what the guy said his speakers were, but we hooked up the Marantz to an equivalent speaker (roughly $2k a pair), then also the Schiit...repeating the same 3 songs, neither of us could tell much difference from the Marantz to the Schitt.

Then we played back the same material hooked up to a pair of 802D3s, the Marantz and then the Schiit....the Schiit had slightly more detail that you could hear in the $20k speakers.

The guy kinda gathered the same thing I did...the music sounded better with the 802D3 and the lower priced DAC than the equivalent speakers did with the more expense DAC.

 

[Swerd]

…back when I was demoing the new 800 series D3 line, I sat in a demo with a gentleman that was interested in upgrading his DAC...the sales guy was showing him two external DACs...one was a Marantz unit, and the other was much more expensive (over $2k) ...Schiit.

I'd rather not mentioned what the guy said his speakers were, but we hooked up the Marantz to an equivalent speaker (roughly $2k a pair), then also the Schiit...repeating the same 3 songs, neither of us could tell much difference from the Marantz to the Schitt.

Then we played back the same material hooked up to a pair of 802D3s, the Marantz and then the Schiit....the Schiit had slightly more detail that you could hear in the $20k speakers.

The guy kinda gathered the same thing I did...the music sounded better with the 802D3 and the lower priced DAC than the equivalent speakers did with the more expense DAC.

Interesting… under the right circumstances, one really can tell Schiit from Shinola .

 

[PENG]

My wife has harden me to nitpicking....

That sentence may not have been worded right, but it came from this experience...back when I was demoing the new 800 series D3 line, I sat in a demo with a gentleman that was interested in upgrading his DAC...the sales guy was showing him two external DACs...one was a Marantz unit, and the other was much more expensive (over $2k) ...Schiit.

I'd rather not mentioned what the guy said his speakers were, but we hooked up the Marantz to an equivalent speaker (roughly $2k a pair), then also the Schiit...repeating the same 3 songs, neither of us could tell much difference from the Marantz to the Schitt.

Then we played back the same material hooked up to a pair of 802D3s, the Marantz and then the Schiit....the Schiit had slightly more detail that you could hear in the $20k speakers.

The guy kinda gathered the same thing I did...the music sounded better with the 802D3 and the lower priced DAC than the equivalent speakers did with the more expense DAC.

Okay I'll nitpick then, I would just lower your $300 to $210, because I have one at that price that I know will fit your last sentence very well. That thing does play almost all resolutions except DSD 512.
https://www.amazon.com/xDuoo-XD-05-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B019SM6JUU

 

[Johnny2Bad]

The DX7 is not under $100. It was $400.

If you are REALLY pressed for funds the under $100 DAC is the the Behringer UMC 204HD. I have it for office duties and they really hit it out of the park.

Stunning what $79 can get you. ASR benched the unit and other than being a bit light on the output levels, just stellar performance for the $$.

Ah, you're right, got my model #'s mixed up. Topping D10.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I was actual looking at 202.
Two questions :
1) any difference from 204, besides inputs and outputs?
2) are tsr output on the back are balanced?

 

[jinjuku]

I was actual looking at 202.
Two questions :
1) any difference from 204, besides inputs and outputs?
2) are tsr output on the back are balanced?

1. Not that I'm aware of
2. I believe they are

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

1. Not that I'm aware of
2. I believe they are

I actually did some more research. Folks on GearSlutz seems to have used it. 1) something about headphone monitoring (mono vs stereo)
2) This one from amazon review - someone says that the two of TSR ports are shortened, making it unbalanced. - https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1VGVI8O1E4WNO/ref=cm_cr_othr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00QHURLCW

Think I may go with larger 404HD. It has real XLR ports. The dynamic range spec should be an issue for me since I don't do analog -> analog mixing
https://forum.musictri.be/showthread.php?13851-Why-is-the-sound-quality-of-the-umc404hd-worse-than-th-umc204hd

Another point is on the Behringer site, 404HD says balanced outs. 202/204 don't.

 

[CB22]

How would you guys rate schitt DACs? Anyone had any hands on experience?

To compare and contrast the DAC's Modi 2 vs the Bitfrost
Modi 2 - AKM AK4490 - 16/44.1 to 24/96
Bitfrost- AKM Verita® AK4490 - 24/192

You guys think the extra 300 bucks would be worth it for hig-res audio?

Judging from @2channel lover reply:

Great DAC + avg speakers = average sound

Great speakers + avg DAC = good SQ

Great speakers + good DAC = great SQ

Great speakers + great DAC = great SQ

Maybe the extra 300 would NOT be worth it. Your thoughts?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I actually did some more research. Folks on GearSlutz seems to have used it. 1) something about headphone monitoring (mono vs stereo)
2) This one from amazon review - someone says that the two of TSR ports are shortened, making it unbalanced. - https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1VGVI8O1E4WNO/ref=cm_cr_othr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00QHURLCW

Think I may go with larger 404HD. It has real XLR ports. The dynamic range spec should be an issue for me since I don't do analog -> analog mixing
https://forum.musictri.be/showthread.php?13851-Why-is-the-sound-quality-of-the-umc404hd-worse-than-th-umc204hd

Another point is on the Behringer site, 404HD says balanced outs. 202/204 don't.

Even more research and asking people on GearSlutz gave me an idea for question I'm looking for:
Behringer is possibly cheating with providing real balanced TSR out.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13317694&postcount=7
The right of doing balanced output is described (using inverting amps) here:
http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm -