Truly amazed..

[shadyJ]

So is he distorting things?
Where he compares the Monolith to Rythmik/Hsu/SVS is he making false statements?
Be specific!

He may well be trying to kill the buzz of a legitimate competitor, but if he is correct in his criticisms, I don't see that as a bad thing!

I don't have time to go into depth here, but one of the things he is omitting is the extremely low distortion that the Monoprice subs have vs many of their competitors- and that is just one of the things he is not mentioning. He is putting these subs in a simple SPL drag race and saying the loudest one wins. There is more to great performing subs than sheer output. There is linear distortion and non-linear distortion, and on these fronts THX subs tend to do really well. He is also judging comparing these subs using CEA-2010 alone, but that is just one way to look at a sub's performance. And even then different CEA-2010 data sets can have significant differences, even though the protocol is supposed to make them all comparable. I know how the measurements posted by monoprice was achieved, and they would be on the low side of recorded measurements.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't have time to go into depth here, but one of the things he is omitting is the extremely low distortion that the Monoprice subs have vs many of their competitors- and that is just one of the things he is not mentioning. He is putting these subs in a simple SPL drag race and saying the loudest one wins. There is more to great performing subs than sheer output. There is linear distortion and non-linear distortion, and on these fronts THX subs tend to do really well. He is also judging comparing these subs using CEA-2010 alone, but that is just one way to look at a sub's performance. And even then different CEA-2010 data sets can have significant differences, even though the protocol is supposed to make them all comparable. I know how those measurements were achieved, and they would be on the low side of recorded measurements.

I'd like to see overlays of the various measurements to illustrate some of this...fwiw.

 

[shadyJ]

I'd like to see overlays of the various measurements to illustrate some of this...fwiw.

For an example of this, look at the original Hsu VTF15h reviews. There are four different CEA-2010 sets of the same sub: Paul Apollonio, Hsu Research, Josh Ricci, Brent Butterworth. Brent even wrote an article about the differences that are possible even when using this same protocol here.

If you want to really compare CEA-2010 data, you have to know more about how the measurements were captured than just what is specified in the protocol. You need to know what software is being used, sound interface, weather conditions, background noise, and other factors. I have been toying with the idea of writing a short article that explains some of this sometime this year, but I have a lot of other projects I want to do as well.

 

[KEW]

There's a time and place for criticisms/discussions, but I'm not sure the official AVS thread announcing the Monoprice subs is appropriate setting for a competitor to jump in and make sure everyone knows his product is better than the new kid on the block.

I understand what you are getting at, but for my own purposes, I just want to know if it is better or not.
Politics, sponsorship, and Miss Manners might dictate otherwise, and I'm surprised that AVS doesn't have the similar restrictions to AH on this, but I'll take whatever is allowed!

 

[lovinthehd]

For an example of this, look at the original Hsu VTF15h reviews. There are four different CEA-2010 sets of the same sub: Paul Apollonio, Hsu Research, Josh Ricci, Brent Butterworth. Brent even wrote an article about the differences that are possible even when using this same protocol here.

If you want to really compare CEA-2010 data, you have to know more about how the measurements were captured than just what is specified in the protocol. You need to know what software is being used, sound interface, weather conditions, background noise, and other factors. I have been toying with the idea of writing a short article that explains some of this sometime this year, but I have a lot of other projects I want to do as well.

Yes, the overlay should be at least on as equal a basis as possible...but it may not be possible. Just a better way to visualize....

 

[Steve81]

I understand what you are getting at, but for my own purposes, I just want to know if it is better or not.

Well, this might give you some idea of where the 15" Monolith stands at least:
Review
https://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/852-monoprice-monolith-thx-ultra-15-subwoofer

Measurements
https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1835:monoprice-monolith-thx-ultra-15-subwoofer&catid=338&Itemid=349

 

[KEW]

I don't have time to go into depth here, but one of the things he is omitting is the extremely low distortion that the Monoprice subs have vs many of their competitors- and that is just one of the things he is not mentioning. He is putting these subs in a simple SPL drag race and saying the loudest one wins. There is more to great performing subs than sheer output. There is linear distortion and non-linear distortion, and on these fronts THX subs tend to do really well. He is also judging comparing these subs using CEA-2010 alone, but that is just one way to look at a sub's performance. And even then different CEA-2010 data sets can have significant differences, even though the protocol is supposed to make them all comparable. I know how the measurements posted by monoprice was achieved, and they would be on the low side of recorded measurements.

Looking forward to your review of the monolith!

 

[snakeeyes]

He was also slamming the Monoprice subs in favor of his own products too (and, fwiw, its a pretty sure bet that the Monolith 15" would wreck the PSA 18"). But I think you are ignoring the subtext of his comments: panic. He knows the designer of these subs, so he knows that they are the real deal. Don't pay attention to his bogus analysis.

As for his fairness to Monoprice subs, I can only speak to the 10" and 12" at the moment, since those are the only ones I have used so far. Without giving too much away from an unpublished review, the Monoprice THX subs are really good. With respect to their competition, they have some real advantages. This review should be published within May, so you can see what their advantages are exactly by the end of the month, hopefully.

Tease.... LOL How many more days? Looking forward to the next one.

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, the overlay should be at least on as equal a basis as possible...but it may not be possible. Just a better way to visualize....

Here is a bit from a spreadsheet that compares various the VTF15h measurements by the way, if you wanted to input those values into some graphing software.

 

[KEW]

Well, this might give you some idea of where the 15" Monolith stands at least:
Review
https://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/852-monoprice-monolith-thx-ultra-15-subwoofer

Measurements
https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1835:monoprice-monolith-thx-ultra-15-subwoofer&catid=338&Itemid=349

OT, but the way the $900 Klipsch R-115SW matches the low end of the $1700 SVS PC13-Ultra is shocking!!!

 

[Steve81]

OT, but the way the $900 Klipsch R-115SW matches the low end of the $1700 SVS PC13-Ultra is shocking!!!

Something wrong with the PC Ultra measurement set, as the entry level PB1000 matches its 20-25Hz performance:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-svs-pb-1000-subwoofer-measurements

 

[KEW]

Something wrong with the PC Ultra measurement set, as the entry level PB1000 matches its 20-25Hz performance:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-svs-pb-1000-subwoofer-measurements

Maybe it is the nature of the 20Hz configuration?
Data-Bass has:
110.6dB @ 20Hz and 113.5dB @ 25Hz for the PB13-Ultra.
This looks to be about 2 dB better than Butterworth's numbers, but a very close match for the PB1000 per Sound and Vision! ...which is
110.6dB @ 20Hz and 113.0dB @ 25Hz for the PB1000
Maybe the S&V PB1000 data is wrong?

 

[Steve81]

Maybe it is the nature of the 20Hz configuration?
Data-Bass has:
110.6dB @ 20Hz and 113.5dB @ 25Hz for the PB13-Ultra.
This looks to be about 2 dB better than Butterworth's numbers, but a very close match for the PB1000 per Sound and Vision! ...which is
110.6dB @ 20Hz and 113.0dB @ 25Hz for the PB1000
Maybe the S&V PB1000 data is wrong?

Nah, that's just a result of reporting output at 1m peak (Brent / CEA standard) vs 2m RMS (Josh). The 110.6dB of the PB1000 would correspond to 101.6dB from Josh.

 

[shadyJ]

Well, this might give you some idea of where the 15" Monolith stands at least:
Review
https://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/852-monoprice-monolith-thx-ultra-15-subwoofer

Measurements
https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1835:monoprice-monolith-thx-ultra-15-subwoofer&catid=338&Itemid=349

Brent's CEA-2010 measurements are a bit lower than Monoprices. His tend to be lower than mine too, if you look at our respective reviews of the Outlaw X13 and SVS SB16. Not saying either one of us is right or wrong, but the protocol just isn't rigorous enough to make sure that everyone is really on the same page. CEA-2010 doesn't quite do what is was supposed to do.

 

[jamiebosco]

OT, but the way the $900 Klipsch R-115SW matches the low end of the $1700 SVS PC13-Ultra is shocking!!!

its confusing because in this review https://www.soundandvision.com/content/test-report-svs-pc-13-ultra-subwoofer-page-4
he measured the pc13 at

• 20 Hz 114.6 dB L

• 25 Hz 117.5 dB L

• 31.5 Hz 118.3 dB L

and in this review https://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-r-115sw-subwoofer-reviewed/?page=2
he measured the Klipsch R-115SW at
*20hz 108.7dB
*25hz 113.8dB
*31.5hz 118.6dB
Unless I'm confusing 2m/rms with 1m/peak or whatever?

It's just very unusual to see a ported SVS subwoofer drop off 10dB between 31.5hz and 20hz like is pictured in the graph - let alone the near 20dB drop from 40hz to 20hz, they tend to be flat to tune point normally

 

[jamiebosco]

I've edited the graph to show what I think Brents PC13 Ultra measurements should look like in graph form (if I'm reading it correctly)

Please let me know if I'm misreading or misinterpreting the data

 

[shadyJ]

I've edited the graph to show what I think Brents PC13 Ultra measurements should look like in graph form (if I'm reading it correctly)
View attachment 24180

Please let me know if I'm misreading or misinterpreting the data

That looks correct.

One thing about the PC13-Ultra is that it would be a tough subwoofer to measure and get a fine sense of its broader performance. The reason why is because anywhere you place the microphone with respect to a sub like that, you can't help but to skewer its measured performance, since the driver and ports are on opposite ends of a long subwoofer. If you place the mic facing the driver, that puts the deep bass generated by the ports at a disadvantage. If you place the mic facing the ports, that puts the upper range bass generated by the cone at a disadvantage. What Brent did for that review was to place the mic equidistant from the ports and cone, by which I am presuming he placed the mic to be facing the side of the sub. The problem with this is that the upper bass from the cone is a lot more directional than the deeper bass from the ports.

One solution to this is to place the mic way far away from the subwoofer so that the difference in distance between cone and port no longer matter, but you need a very quiet location to do that in because background noise will be a lot more significant in a testing condition like that.

 

[lovinthehd]

Somewhat like what Josh Ricci encountered with dual opposed sub measurement and came up with this https://data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=77

 

[snakeeyes]

Wow! Lost a bit of respect for both PSA and AVS after reading this thread and the links (especially because Tom V. of PSA went against shadyJ), but very curious about Monolith sub performance vs Rythmik and HSU. I also realize each price point is a competition and everyone will have a favorite.
I admit, I do like AVS owner threads for specific models of various components, as you can find every setting of every piece of gear if you dig thru 900 pages of comments... Anyhow, none of that compares to one of James’ subwoofer reviews or Gene’s receiver reviews though... There is no competition to those!

 

[Rick Ross]

I think what some of you guys might not be seeing is that in using other manufacturer's subs to slam the Monolith subs, he is trying to discredit a new competitive threat. He can't really do that against Hsu or Rythmik since their credibility is already so well established. And he is right to see the Monolith subs as a threat.

Bingo! This is exactly what is going on. Tom may have even been told by a moderator to knock it off, because he later said, I believe in that thread, that he wouldn't comment any more on this.