The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[PENG]

User tone controls, user REQ (advanced time and frequency controls) whatever you like. Most people adjust or re-measure to taste. For example: "On my 5'th try the XXX REQ calibration sounds good.".
People should use tone controls, Audyssey, Dirac, DEQ, because it's preference.

Here are the Salon2 measurements taken without processing on the 9 positions recommended by Dirac:

View attachment 24024

Here are the measurements averaged together:

View attachment 24025

Here is the improvement by manually using PEQ filters and REW measurements for below 80Hz:

View attachment 24026


The top graph was utterly convincing to me that folly of applying equalization to a well made speaker above Schroeder Frequency. At 400Hz and above the mic positions (all within 3 feet) are all over the place which make sense when you consider that the wave length. If you have ever used a mic, you will soon realize how even with low frequencies, small movements in the position can cause large changes in the measured response.

According to Revel, you REQ/PEQ should be used to address room modes and not to correct above that as it has a negative affect on a well designed speaker.

I am not a fan of the Audio room correction mythology that includes real measurements and then predictive response. There should be after measurements.
Video calibration always includes pre-calibration and post-calibration measurements.
PEQ operates this way by when used with REW or similar programs.

REQ is predictive, and if you see how the mic can behave, I understand the reluctance to show the after measurements. It will not be pretty.

- Rich

We can agree to disagree on their effectiveness, and whether that be positive or negative based on our own experience, but I wouldn't use the term "mythology" on REQ systems such as Dirac, Trinnov, Audyssey Anthem ARC, Roomperfect etc. That wouldn't seem fair, consider the fact that there have been a lot of R&D and highly qualified engineers and scientists behind those products.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm often accused of being clueless, but mostly by women.

Men: I'm from Mars
Women: I'm from Venus
Men: I prefer Separates
Women: I prefer AVRs
Men: Separate are way better than AVRs
Women: You're CLUELESS - you think you know what's best for you, but you really don't! You're just wasting all of my money that I could be spending on more purses, shoes, and clothes!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We can agree to disagree on their effectiveness, and whether that be positive or negative based on our own experience...

Yeah, I think everything we "preach" is based on our own personal experiences.

Is Room Correction just a myth or gimmick?

Is the statement "room correction improves sound quality" considered folklore by some people just like the statement "separates sound better than AVR" is considered hearsay/folklore by many people who own AVRs?

Objectively, Room Corrections can make the FR graphs look smoother, more linear/flatter. But what matters at the end of the day is what we actually HEAR, not how flatter the FR graphs look.

Some of us have compared many amps, preamps, and AVRs and can't tell much of a difference, while some of us can tell the difference.

Some of us find that certain Room EQ systems improve the sound quality, while some of us find that they don't subjectively improve the sound quality even if they do objectively make the graphs look more linear/flat.

Some of us find that Audyssey sounds better, while others find that ARC sounds better, and others find that Dirac sounds better, etc.

Some of us can't seem to live without Audyssey Dynamic EQ (that's me ), while other don't like it at all.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A member on a different thread recently auditioned a pair of Quadral Wotan Phonologues tower speakers (88dB/w/m, 4-8 ohms) at his friend's house (NAIM NAP-90 amp, which is 30WPC x 2Ch into 8 ohms).

When he brought the speakers to his own home, the speakers didn't sound as good.

She asked if the amp was the reason the speakers didn't sound as good.

His current system consists of an Onkyo NR-818 AVR (THX 135WPC x 2Ch into 8 ohms) and SVS Ultra speakers. So he thinks that adding an amp like an Emotiva or ATI amp would make the speakers sound as good as when they were at his friend's house.

Is this a typical case of someone thinking that adding the separate amp improved the sound quality of the speakers?

I think in most cases, it's the Pre-pro (EQ, Processing), Room Acoustics, and difference in VOLUME LEVEL that is making the big difference, not simply the amp itself - assuming he is like most typical people who don't listen to extremely loud volume in a typical 16'x18' room using typical speakers that aren't crazy to power.

 

[RichB]

We can agree to disagree on their effectiveness, and whether that be positive or negative based on our own experience, but I wouldn't use the term "mythology" on REQ systems such as Dirac, Trinnov, Audyssey Anthem ARC, Roomperfect etc. That wouldn't seem fair, consider the fact that there have been a lot of R&D and highly qualified engineers and scientists behind those products.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was auto-corrected. I meant to use the term "methodology". The post has been corrected.

I am making two points:

• Before and after measurements should be based on the same methodology. I have seen charts showing un-smoothed before measurements combined with smoothed predictive response. That sould create some excellent expectation bias
• Many folks keep running auto-calibration until they like it, which is fine but not "objectivist"

The Video calibration process uses the same measurement process for pre and post calibration.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Men: I'm from Mars
Women: I'm from Venus
Men: I prefer Separates
Women: I prefer AVRs
Men: Separate are way better than AVRs
Women: You're CLUELESS - you think you know what's best for you, but you really don't! You're just wasting all of my money that I could be spending on more purses, shoes, and clothes!

Actually, in my wife's case she's bugging me for a new Boxster GTS.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually, in my wife's case she's bugging me for a new Boxster GTS.

Oh, well, separates and AVRs are small potatoes compared to a Porsche.

Women: Oh no you're buying any amps because I'm getting a Porsche!

Somehow I think AVRs will sound just fine when you have a Porsche parked in your garage. Even inside the garage, it will do wonders for your psychoacoustics.

 

[RichB]

Actually, in my wife's case she's bugging me for a new Boxster GTS.

My wife is bugging me to by a 77 OLED. It's important to marry well.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My wife is bugging me to by a 77 OLED. It's important to marry well.

- Rich

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-77-class-76-7-diag--oled-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv-with-high-dynamic-range/5770942.p?skuId=5770942&ref=212&loc=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw2dvWBRBvEiwADllhn7d_LfDeqNz1eNfEcM5-8-9sWbrDcfS-gLgn_lhS5fD9Giyxhq5C4BoCQ5wQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Not quite as giddy as driving a Porsche, but definitely still very good psychoacoustic effect.

You guys have some "sick" wives.

 

[TechHDS]

Men: I'm from Mars
Women: I'm from Venus
Men: I prefer Separates
Women: I prefer AVRs
Men: Separate are way better than AVRs
Women: You're CLUELESS - you think you know what's best for you, but you really don't! You're just wasting all of my money that I could be spending on more purses, shoes, and clothes!

Or, private tennis lessons with Guido.

 

[Irvrobinson]

My wife is bugging me to by a 77 OLED. It's important to marry well.

- Rich

That reminds of a tug-of-war I had with my wife over an HT system. I successfully resisted for years, but she wanted something better than the 40" Sony LCD and the tiny JBL bookshelf speakers we had. Resistance was futile, but an HT system that made her happy ran only $5K for the whole set-up. A Boxster GTS, lightly optioned I might add, is about $90K. She likes cars with tops that go down and I don't, so my feet are more firmly dug in. Now if she wanted a new Cayman GTS to replace our old Cayman I might be more sympathetic. Maybe even a GT3 (the one with the 6-speed and no dumb wing)... I suggested a Miata if she insisted on a soft top, but she seems to be holding out for something grossly expensive.

 

[RichB]

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-77-class-76-7-diag--oled-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv-with-high-dynamic-range/5770942.p?skuId=5770942&ref=212&loc=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw2dvWBRBvEiwADllhn7d_LfDeqNz1eNfEcM5-8-9sWbrDcfS-gLgn_lhS5fD9Giyxhq5C4BoCQ5wQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Not quite as giddy as driving a Porsche, but definitely still very good psychoacoustic effect.

You guys have some "sick" wives.

Actually, I had a dealer give my a price below $7K for last years model (similar to the Sony). I expect that I can find the 77C8 for under $7K by summer. Some are predicting $5k by black Friday, but I am doubltful.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

That reminds of a tug-of-war I had with my wife over an HT system. I successfully resisted for years, but she wanted something better than the 40" Sony LCD and the tiny JBL bookshelf speakers we had. Resistance was futile, but an HT system that made her happy ran only $5K for the whole set-up. A Boxster GTS, lightly optioned I might add, is about $90K. She likes cars with tops that go down and I don't, so my feet are more firmly dug in. Now if she wanted a new Cayman GTS to replace our old Cayman I might be more sympathetic. Maybe even a GT3 (the one with the 6-speed and no dumb wing)... I suggested a Miata if she insisted on a soft top, but she seems to be holding out for something grossly expensive.

Ouch. We are paying tuitions which preclude these types of expenditures.

- Rich

 

[Mikado463]

Please don't play the part of a pussy and use semantics. Sh?t or get off the pot.

Ok, I just flushed you down ..................

 

[M Code]

I can't thank you enough for posting up DR. Toole's name. If I remember right I could be wrong, but the email I had gotten from H/K when I called into H/K, and the guy I was talking with for at least a half an hour. I gave him my email he sent a discussion in print, was about 5 or 6 pages between Dr. Toole and Mr. Harman. I wish I had saved that in print from my email. To be able to read what those two where discussing Theory and Application, on speaker driver's and amp design was nothing short of amazing at least to me it was. It was a old conversation of years back, and I had gotten that around 2011-2012.

We have worked with Dr.Toole for >20 years on various projects, many for Harman International.
IMHO..
He is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable audio/acoustic experts anywhere. 1 of things many fail to understand is that Harman International is 1 of few audio companies that had significant R&D resources in loudspeakers (JBL, Revel, Infinity) and electronics (HK, JBL, Lexicon, Crown). He also is primary presenter @ the CEDIA shows, besides being a friendly, nice guy.. I have spent considerable time with Dr. Toole and staff, I can truly say he has been an incredible mentor especially for understanding some of the challenging objectives to design/build high resolution loudspeakers and electronics. He has written many AES papers and his book is an excellent reference. I will always cherish this incredible experience.
Here is a link for the subject book if U have a further interest...

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1524082202&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=dr.+floyd+toole


Just my $0.02...

 

[M Code]

We can agree to disagree on their effectiveness, and whether that be positive or negative based on our own experience, but I wouldn't use the term "mythology" on REQ systems such as Dirac, Trinnov, Audyssey Anthem ARC, Roomperfect etc. That wouldn't seem fair, consider the fact that there have been a lot of R&D and highly qualified engineers and scientists behind those products.

Regarding Room EQ schemes and tone controls..
IMHO..
These are (2) separate subjects.. Fixing, adjusting levels and correcting Room nodes are a function of the EQ software and apply to all sources. The purpose of tone controls are to provide a fine adjustment for correcting audio deficiencies within a specific program content.
Such as an:

• Older analog vinyl needing some bass boost or cut
• Analog tape playback with hiss
• Cinema sound track with weak mid-range voice dialog
• Cinema sound track with over emphasized treble
• Personal desire of the listener for some temporary frequency tweak

Just my $0.02...

 

[Irvrobinson]

Ouch. We are paying tuitions which preclude these types of expenditures.

And I'm really not dumb enough (anymore) to put that kind of money into depreciating assets.

 

[pewternhrata]

Actually, in my wife's case she's bugging me for a new Boxster GTS.

Mine started off wanting a purse, she gets it, I get a new avr, easy enough. The problem now is she wants a 370z and i cant convince her to let me get my fair share, oh first world problems lol

 

[3db]

Ok, I just flushed you down ..................

Wow, you almost get a man card for this.

 

[mtrycrafts]

We have worked with Dr.Toole for >20 years on various projects, many for Harman International.
IMHO..
He is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable audio/acoustic experts anywhere. 1 of things many fail to understand is that Harman International is 1 of few audio companies that had significant R&D resources in loudspeakers (JBL, Revel, Infinity) and electronics (HK, JBL, Lexicon, Crown). He also is primary presenter @ the CEDIA shows, besides being a friendly, nice guy.. I have spent considerable time with Dr. Toole and staff, I can truly say he has been an incredible mentor especially for understanding some of the challenging objectives to design/build high resolution loudspeakers and electronics. He has written many AES papers and his book is an excellent reference. I will always cherish this incredible experience.
Here is a link for the subject book if U have a further interest...

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1524082202&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=dr.+floyd+toole


Just my $0.02...

If I have it right he was at Harman since the mid 90s and certainly before that at the Canadian National Research center for about 20 years researching speaker acoustics. There is a great article about him in Audio, Dec 1997.