The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[TechHDS]

How can you guys listen to tone flat?. Who in their right mind even does that? The room alone where all your gear sits isn't perfect. Who has golden ears? Please enlighten me? Tone, balance controls Are the reasons No one has Golden Ears or a perfect room. Unless your TLS, his audio/video room looks to be close to perfect and He is a Real Doctor. But that's cheating in my book. . Still one of the best systems I have seen to date.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I think Dirac (Emotiva), ARC (Anthem), Audyssey XT32, and Lyngdorf (McIntosh) do nothing subjectively to improve the sound quality when I compared on vs off.

Objectively, the FR graphs seem to look flatter. But I guess I don’t prefer it too flat.

So I don’t see the point of using these Room Correction software because of my experience (at home, family and friends’ houses, dealers).

What I do love is the Audyssey Dynamic EQ software, which boosts the bass and seems to make the sound significantly more lively for me.

Some people feel that Audyssey DEQ does too much, while some feel it doesn’t do enough. But you can adjust the magnitude of the DEQ with both the off-set level and the digital Trim Levels.

Although I think most good separates cost significantly more than AVR and I hate parting ways with any amount of money, I do feel good about owning “separates”.

My theory with separates vs AVR is that sound quality isn’t the only factor. Feeling good about your System that you look at everyday and use everyday is important.

I used to own the Acurus RL11 preamp and the A250 power amp. Wow, good bang for the buck back then.

 

[RichB]

User tone controls, user REQ (advanced time and frequency controls) whatever you like. Most people adjust or re-measure to taste. For example: "On my 5'th try the XXX REQ calibration sounds good.".
People should use tone controls, Audyssey, Dirac, DEQ, because it's preference.

Here are the Salon2 measurements taken without processing on the 9 positions recommended by Dirac:

Here are the measurements averaged together:

Here is the improvement by manually using PEQ filters and REW measurements for below 80Hz:

The top graph was utterly convincing to me that folly of applying equalization to a well made speaker above Schroeder Frequency. At 400Hz and above the mic positions (all within 3 feet) are all over the place which make sense when you consider that the wave length. If you have ever used a mic, you will soon realize how even with low frequencies, small movements in the position can cause large changes in the measured response.

According to Revel, you REQ/PEQ should be used to address room modes and not to correct above that as it has a negative affect on a well designed speaker.

I am not a fan of the Audio room correction methodology that includes real measurements and then predictive response. There should be after measurements.
Video calibration always includes pre-calibration and post-calibration measurements.
PEQ operates this way by when used with REW or similar programs.

REQ is predictive, and if you see how the mic can behave, I understand the reluctance to show the after measurements. It will not be pretty.

- Rich

 

[3db]

I didnt answer the poll because there should be one more choice added to it..

"No, Separates and AVRs sound about the same driving well within their design limits" . Thats my answer.

 

[Mikado463]

"No, Separates and AVRs sound about the same driving well within their design limits" . Thats my answer.

'sound about the same' , that's kinda like saying both a Yugo and a Corvette can get you to the store and back !

 

[Irvrobinson]

'sound about the same' , that's kinda like saying both a Yugo and a Corvette can get you to the store and back !

Not even close to true, IMO, and that's coming from a guy who hates AVRs. The difference between two samples of the exact same car model will differ much more than the difference between a $1000 AVR and $10,000 worth of pre-amp and amps (all operating within their design limits).

 

[RichB]

Not even close to true, IMO, and that's coming from a guy who hates AVRs. The difference between two samples of the exact same car model will differ much more than the difference between a $1000 AVR and $10,000 worth of pre-amp and amps (all operating within their design limits).

The person who bought the $1,000 AVR wants them to sound the same.
The person who bought the $10,000 pre-amp and amps wants them to sound different (better).

The person who runs REQ wants it to sound better, especially after they see the beautiful graphs. I was disappointed. My expectation bias sucks.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I used to own the Acurus RL11 preamp and the A250 power amp. Wow, good bang for the buck back then.

Yeah. Loved "Acu" back then. Loved the price, the aesthetics, the sound quality. At one point I owned four Acurus RL11 and four Acurus 200x3 amps for a multi-channel analog system.

 

[Mikado463]

Not even close to true, IMO, and that's coming from a guy who hates AVRs. The difference between two samples of the exact same car model will differ much more than the difference between a $1000 AVR and $10,000 worth of pre-amp and amps (all operating within their design limits).

you missed the point Irv, forget it..........

 

[Irvrobinson]

you missed the point Irv, forget it..........

I'm often accused of being clueless, but mostly by women.

 

[PENG]

The person who bought the $1,000 AVR wants them to sound the same.
The person who bought the $10,000 pre-amp and amps wants them to sound different (better).

The person who runs REQ wants it to sound better, especially after they see the beautiful graphs. I was disappointed. My expectation bias sucks.

- Rich

Bias sucks, unfortunately so does DBT that is supposed to remove the bias factor, for a lot of people who don't want to face the truth whatever the truth turns out to be.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Yeah. Loved "Acu" back then. Loved the price, the aesthetics, the sound quality. At one point I owned three Acurus RL11 and three Acurus 200x3 amps for an analog 5.1 system.

I had the Acurus components mentioned above then after that I had the Aragon 18K preamp and the 4004 MKII power amp. I remember that 4004 had the kick of mule in the woofer. You could feel it right in the groin. Then I sold it all and went without anything for quite a while.

Then I got a Classé CP-50 preamp and a CA-200 power amp. I lost the mule kick in the woofer and the very bright top end of the 4004, but I gained an overall smoother, flatter and warmer sound in the Classé. To this day, I've still got the Classé components.

NOTE: My sonic comparison between the components is completely subjective and unscientific. It was not done with a proper DBT. (In reality, the Mondial and the Classé gear probably sound the same)

 

[TechHDS]

I had the Acurus components mentioned above then after that I had the Aragon 18K preamp and the 4004 MKII power amp. I remember that 4004 had the kick of mule in the woofer. You could feel it right in the groin. Then I sold it all and went without anything for quite a while.

Then I got a Classé CP-50 preamp and a CA-200 power amp. I lost the mule kick in the woofer and the very bright top end of the 4004, but I gained an overall smoother, flatter and warmer sound in the Classé. To this day, I've still got the Classé components.

NOTE: My sonic comparison between the components is completely subjective and unscientific. It was not done with a proper DBT. (In reality, the Mondial and the Classé gear probably sound the same)

Do believe I have never seen a profile name as yours could be wrong. Pretty dang cool man.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Do believe I have never seen a profile name as yours could be wrong. Pretty dang cool man.

Thanks. I guess.

 

[3db]

'sound about the same' , that's kinda like saying both a Yugo and a Corvette can get you to the store and back !

Says the man using a wheel barrel to haul his groceries home. Please enlighten us why they would sound different if both are driving the same load well within their deigned limits?

 

[TechHDS]

Thanks. I guess.

Yes it is a compliment, if I thought a MOD could help me change my profile name I would. Tech, stand for my days in the Gulf of Mexico, Sr. Instrumentation Tech. HDS, stands for, High Definition Sound.

 

[TechHDS]

Bias sucks, unfortunately so does DBT that is supposed to remove the bias factor, for a lot of people who don't want to face the truth whatever the truth turns out to be.

PENG, "Bias Sucks" that phrase alone would make a good signature or profile name. .

 

[TechHDS]

HK 1st implemented an auto setup SW in 2002 but it was just for level settings. Next in the lower AVRs using a Cirrus Logic DSP they used the generic Cirrus EQ solution as it was royalty-free. The big step forward was when Dr.Toole and his team developed what many consider to be the best Room EQ SW but this required significant DSP resources so HK went with the TI DSPs. Then JBL used the same EQ SW in some of their higher end components by Synthesis..

Just my $0.02..

I can't thank you enough for posting up DR. Toole's name. If I remember right I could be wrong, but the email I had gotten from H/K when I called into H/K, and the guy I was talking with for at least a half an hour. I gave him my email he sent a discussion in print, was about 5 or 6 pages between Dr. Toole and Mr. Harman. I wish I had saved that in print from my email. To be able to read what those two where discussing Theory and Application, on speaker driver's and amp design was nothing short of amazing at least to me it was. It was a old conversation of years back, and I had gotten that around 2011-2012.

 

[Mikado463]

Says the man using a wheel barrel to haul his groceries home. Please enlighten us why they would sound different if both are driving the same load well within their deigned limits?

I never said they would, rather they 'could' as you implied by using the word 'about' .........

 

[3db]

I never said they would, rather they 'could' as you implied by using the word 'about' .........

Please don't play the part of a pussy and use semantics. Sh?t or get off the pot.