KEF Reference3 vs b&w 804 D3

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is Paradigm trying to emulate the big broad 10kHz peak of the B&W Diamond series with their new Beryllium Tweeter speakers ?

Here is the Sound and Vision measurement of the $10K Paradigm 3F (Beryllium Tweeter).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/paradigm-persona-3f-speaker-system-review-test-bench

And here is the new GoldenEar Triton Reference with it's big broad 10kHz peak. Seems like a trend with some companies?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-reference-loudspeaker-review-test-bench

 

[PENG]

And here is the new GoldenEar Triton Reference with it's big broad 10kHz peak. Seems like a trend with some companies?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-reference-loudspeaker-review-test-bench

That's because they all know the group that can afford such speakers are those who already have significant hearing loss in the 6 to 10 kHz range. Loss of such hearing could be mostly due to their age, and also years of either listening to loud music and/or subjected to environmental noise (e.g. frequent flyers).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's because they all know the group that can afford such speakers are those who already have significant hearing loss in the 6 to 10 kHz range. Loss of such hearing could be mostly due to their age, and also years of either listening to loud music and/or subjected to environmental noise (e.g. frequent flyers).

I guess Revel, KEF, TAD, RBH, Focal never got the memo.

Who knows? Maybe the Salon3 may get that big broad old (pun intended) 10kHz peak. Samsung owns Revel now.

 

[TLS Guy]

Is Paradigm trying to emulate the big broad 10kHz peak of the B&W Diamond series with their new Beryllium Tweeter speakers ?

Here is the Sound and Vision measurement of the $10K Paradigm 3F (Beryllium Tweeter).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/paradigm-persona-3f-speaker-system-review-test-bench

And here is the new GoldenEar Triton Reference with it's big broad 10kHz peak. Seems like a trend with some companies?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-reference-loudspeaker-review-test-bench

The problem is that the public think a metal dome is better. The trend you refer to is hard domes and its a bad trend.

This is the FR if the best Beryllium tweeter available to the DIY builder and used in quite a number of high end speakers. I heard it in some Rockport speakers. It is the top end Scanspeak reveltor.

I don't care what hard dome tweeter you look at there will be issues in the top end.

Soft domes are arguably superior and it is because there is ripple across the dome. We have had this misguided idea that all cone break up must be stamped out. However controlled break up is a much better approach.

This is the FR of the SEAS soft dome I use.

Now which one would you pick for your design?

I know for certain which sound more accurate.

 

[PENG]

I guess Revel, KEF, TAD, RBH, Focal never got the memo.

Who knows? Maybe the Salon3 may get that big broad old (pun intended) 10kHz peak. Samsung owns Revel now.

Some of them may in fact have the memo by now, just give them time. For now you are correct, as can be seen in the comparison below, Focal 1037 Be vs the 800 D3. With less smoothing, you can see that the Focal has that peak too at around 10k, but about half as bad.


https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-electra-1037-be-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some of them may in fact have the memo by now, just give them time. For now you are correct, as can be seen in the comparison below, Focal 1037 Be vs the 800 D3. With less smoothing, you can see that the Focal has that peak too at around 10k, but about half as bad.


https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-electra-1037-be-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

It looks like the Focal is -1dB at 10kHz and the B&W is +5dB at 10kHz.

 

[PENG]

It looks like the Focal is -1dB at 10kHz and the B&W is +5dB at 10kHz.

I meant the higher resolution plots , more like 2-3 vs 6.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I meant the higher resolution plots , more like 2-3 vs 6.

Oh, yeah, the Focal 1037 is +2.5dB at 10kHz.

I think most people consider anything less than +3dB okay?

The B&W 805D3 is +7.0dB at 10kHz.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements



I just looked at the Aurum Cantus AS25120 AMT Aluminum tweeter that is used in the RBH SVT tower. It's +1.5dB around 10kHz and +2.5dB around 12kHz.

The Soft-Dome tweeters in the RBH T2/ T30 seem to have less rise in the treble. So maybe TLS Guy might be on to something with Soft vs Metal Tweeter.

 

[PENG]

Oh, yeah, the Focal 1037 is +2.5dB at 10kHz.

I think most people consider anything less than +3dB okay?

The B&W 805D3 is +7.0dB at 10kHz.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements



I just looked at the Aurum Cantus AS25120 AMT Aluminum tweeter that is used in the RBH SVT tower. It's +1.5dB around 10kHz and +2.5dB around 12kHz.

The Soft-Dome tweeters in the RBH T2/ T30 seem to have less rise in the treble. So maybe TLS Guy might be on to something with Soft vs Metal Tweeter.

I think he is right in general and to a point. There are those with metal domes that don't have the 10 kHz bumps or any problematic bumps until they hit 20 kHz and beyond. As you cited, some Focal domes don't have the 10 KHz bumps. Bumps could be due to other things, resonance being one.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

If anything, peaks in the 10 k - 15 k region are more prevalent on soft dome tweeters than on metal domes, which tend to be flat until their ringing breakup at 20 kHz or higher. I've worked with very few soft domes that don't have a peak, usually around 15 kHz. 10 kHz is probably audible to most people, but 15 kHz peaks are pretty benign.

 

[TLS Guy]

If anything, peaks in the 10 k - 15 k region are more prevalent on soft dome tweeters than on metal domes, which tend to be flat until their ringing breakup at 20 kHz or higher. I've worked with very few soft domes that don't have a peak, usually around 15 kHz. 10 kHz is probably audible to most people, but 15 kHz peaks are pretty benign.

There are a huge number of tweeters to choose from. I think you have to look for the good ones and stick to them. As a group I think you can find a larger number of good textile dome tweeters to choose from than hard domes.

The SEAS Millenium Excel tweeter is really nice.

This is another of my favorite tweeters with a good price to performance ratio.

The only hard dome I had any real luck with was an MB Quart Titanium tweeter that was produced in the early eighties until the company changed ownership. That was a really smooth tweeter.

 

[shadyJ]

Is Paradigm trying to emulate the big broad 10kHz peak of the B&W Diamond series with their new Beryllium Tweeter speakers ?

Here is the Sound and Vision measurement of the $10K Paradigm 3F (Beryllium Tweeter).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/paradigm-persona-3f-speaker-system-review-test-bench

And here is the new GoldenEar Triton Reference with it's big broad 10kHz peak. Seems like a trend with some companies?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-reference-loudspeaker-review-test-bench

When I close mic tested the Persona 5F tweeters I did see that rise around 10 kHz, although not quite that severe. When I tested the speaker at 1m level with the midwoofer, I got a very flat response. The Persona towers are intended to be listened around the midwoofer height, as the tweeter height is quite high. That Persona bookshelf speaker is probably best listened with midwoofer level with the listener's ear, unless the listener likes sizzling hot treble.

 

[shadyJ]

When I close mic tested the Persona 5F tweeters I did see that rise around 10 kHz, although not quite that severe. When I tested the speaker at 1m level with the midwoofer, I got a very flat response. The Persona towers are intended to be listened around the midwoofer height, as the tweeter height is quite high. That Persona bookshelf speaker is probably best listened with midwoofer level with the listener's ear, unless the listener likes sizzling hot treble.

edit: I thought the 3F was the bookshelf Persona speaker. Yeah, that is the smaller tower, and it is intended to be listened to with ears level with the midwoofer. The tweeter is mounted too high to listen level with the tweeter, unless you were using a booster seat. You can't always assume that the tweeter is the reference axis with speakers.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

There are a huge number of tweeters to choose from. I think you have to look for the good ones and stick to them. As a group I think you can find a larger number of good textile dome tweeters to choose from than hard domes.

The SEAS Millenium Excel tweeter is really nice.

This is another of my favorite tweeters with a good price to performance ratio.

The only hard dome I had any real luck with was an MB Quart Titanium tweeter that was produced in the early eighties until the company changed ownership. That was a really smooth tweeter.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I've worked with both tweeters, and they're first class. But I prefer greater dispersion than the Seas gives you, and there's a cheaper version that does just as well. You can't go wrong with Scan Speak, but I'm not sure there's any audible advantage to them over a Seas unit in the $40 range. Anyhow, I think the bottom line here is that there are a jillion good tweeters of various materials that don't peak at 10 kHz. And that's a good thing.

 

[speakerman39]

There are a huge number of tweeters to choose from. I think you have to look for the good ones and stick to them. As a group I think you can find a larger number of good textile dome tweeters to choose from than hard domes.

The SEAS Millenium Excel tweeter is really nice.

This is another of my favorite tweeters with a good price to performance ratio.

The only hard dome I had any real luck with was an MB Quart Titanium tweeter that was produced in the early eighties until the company changed ownership. That was a really smooth tweeter.

The Millenium tweeters are by far the best that I have ever heard. They are used in Ty's Linbrook Signature Monitors (MTM) that I did own at one time. The Seas Magnesium mids are also the best mids that I have ever heard. However, I still have NOT heard a RAAL tweeter. But do hope to sooner rather than later. The same can also be said for the Diamond tweeters, as well as, the Be tweeters.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[<eargiant]

Also my sentiment when I owned the 802D2. I think they were a bit sharp and fatiguing with some materials after about an hour. But they look so darn cute.

Not surprisingly, I have the exact opposite sentiment. I've NEVER found them to be sharp or fatiguing (less so even than peak-less speakers I've had here), one of the closest to real music I've heard but I'm not a fan of their looks. Fit, finish and build quality are top notch but looks are not my favorite attribute.

Spaceman helmets and microphones on top, not so much - but the sublime sound they reproduce make it all worthwhile.

 

[Art Vandelay]

A couple of years ago I measured the Diamond tweeter response on its own - with all other drivers disconnected, so there's just the 4.7uF capacitor from the crossover unit in series.

As shown, on-axis response is quite flat above 5kHz. Quite visible too is the coil resonance at 800Hz.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I also ran a simulation of what the response of the FST + Diamond tweeter would look like if B&W had used the same crossover but with the tweeter inverted and time aligned. (phase coherent)

And compare with a sim of the B&W crossover design below. So pretty clearly, most of that 'bump' on tweeter axis comes from the crossover design and not the tweeter.

.

 

[Turk]

Or apply EQ, eventually, even die hard audiophiles will embrace EQ like they do with digital source/player.

Until auto eq blows out 8 804 d3 woofers and 2 HTM2 D3 woofers