Next Step: Receiver/Amp or Integrated?

[mtrot]

The problem is that Yamaha has chosen to provide very weak pre-amp outputs on their low-mid level AVR's and he cannot just pick any amp and expect compatibility.
For more on this, read the link I provided in post #17!

Interesting. Yamaha don't make it easy, do they?

Out of curiosity, I'm running my system similar to the way Soner is considering, using my Denon AVR-X5200W receiver as a pre-pro, running it into my Krell power amp for the front L/R channels. Here are the specs from Denon:

Analog:
Rated output: 1.2 V

D/A output: Rated output — 2 V (at 0 dB playback)
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB

Now, according to the Krell specs, the gain is 26.4dB.
And -- SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO 117 dB “A” WEIGHTED

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would present a similar matching problem as you are concerned about with Soner. Is that correct? If my sound is being compromised in any way from this match, I might be interested in doing something about it. However, it seems to sound fantastic to me, and I cannot hear any hiss whatsoever with my ear up to the tweeters. I don't really listen at super high sound levels. Any thoughts?

 

[KEW]

Interesting. Yamaha don't make it easy, do they?

Out of curiosity, I'm running my system similar to the way Soner is considering, using my Denon AVR-X5200W receiver as a pre-pro, running it into my Krell power amp for the front L/R channels. Here are the specs from Denon:

Analog:
Rated output: 1.2 V

D/A output: Rated output — 2 V (at 0 dB playback)
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB

Now, according to the Krell specs, the gain is 26.4dB.
And -- SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO 117 dB “A” WEIGHTED

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would present a similar matching problem as you are concerned about with Soner. Is that correct? If my sound is being compromised in any way from this match, I might be interested in doing something about it. However, it seems to sound fantastic to me, and I cannot hear any hiss whatsoever with my ear up to the tweeters. I don't really listen at super high sound levels. Any thoughts?

I'm no expert. More detail in the Preamp Measurements section here.
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

I might guess the 1.2 is a nominal or average value, but higher levels should be viable without excessive distortion (but are not on Yamaha)?
I do not remember Gene having any issues with Denon on this count.

 

[lovinthehd]

The problem is that Yamaha has chosen to provide very weak pre-amp outputs on their low-mid level AVR's and he cannot just pick any amp and expect compatibility.
For more on this, read the link I provided in post #17!

The suggested Crown has adjustable sensitivity, of either .775V or 1.4V (the XLSxx02 models that is, first gen only had 1.4V). If it can't drive .775V that would be an avr I wouldn't want even some consumer amps need more than that....

 

[PENG]

Interesting. Yamaha don't make it easy, do they?

Out of curiosity, I'm running my system similar to the way Soner is considering, using my Denon AVR-X5200W receiver as a pre-pro, running it into my Krell power amp for the front L/R channels. Here are the specs from Denon:

Analog:
Rated output: 1.2 V

D/A output: Rated output — 2 V (at 0 dB playback)
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB

Now, according to the Krell specs, the gain is 26.4dB.
And -- SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO 117 dB “A” WEIGHTED

If I'm understanding you correctly, that would present a similar matching problem as you are concerned about with Soner. Is that correct? If my sound is being compromised in any way from this match, I might be interested in doing something about it. However, it seems to sound fantastic to me, and I cannot hear any hiss whatsoever with my ear up to the tweeters. I don't really listen at super high sound levels. Any thoughts?

Gene measured 4.5 Vrms unclipped on every channel of the x5200w. It should be able to drive your Krell to it's rated output unless the rated output is really high.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

 

[Soner]

If my sound is being compromised in any way from this match, I might be interested in doing something about it. However, it seems to sound fantastic to me, and I cannot hear any hiss whatsoever with my ear up to the tweeters. I don't really listen at super high sound levels. Any thoughts?

If you think it sounds great, keep it. That's the whole point. After all the numbers are crunched, the point is that you enjoy it. My two cents.

Cheers,
Soner

 

[Soner]

I could not find a gain spec for that amp. But I suspect the Marantz may fall short of the 29dB criteria. Emotiva is fairly unique in providing such a high gain structure (which can prove problematically susceptible to pre-amp noise). For example, the Outlaw 5000 (rare in that they provide this spec)

After reading mixed thoughts about Emotiva on these forums, I'm not sure what to make of them sans-personal experience. You would confidently suggest them?

 

[Soner]

It seems that we all feel the OP may not benefit from an amp. If he does need one, he should go with something more powerful than the MM7025 that is just a glorified two channel receiver without the tuner.

Yes, this seems to be the consensus. If an amp, then a much more powerful one, and not needlessly expensive. Put most of my investment toward speakers.

Thank you all so much,
Soner

 

[Soner]

I think that if you are going to buy an amp, make it 200 WPC or more.

Just get a $229 200 WPC Crown Amp from Amazon and try it out. You have 30 days to return it.

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLi800-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00AR0A3V4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1514062318&sr=8-3&keywords=crown+amp

Great advice. Thank you.

 

[Soner]

I think that if you are going to buy an amp, make it 200 WPC or more.

Just get a $229 200 WPC Crown Amp from Amazon and try it out. You have 30 days to return it.

If the much cheaper amp theoretically accomplishes the same goal with similar/same results, why is it so cheap? Is there anything I would be sacrificing (besides aesthetics, which I care virtually nothing about) that I should consider in going with something this much lower in price?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If the much cheaper amp theoretically accomplishes the same goal with similar/same results, why is it so cheap? Is there anything I would be sacrificing (besides aesthetics, which I care virtually nothing about) that I should consider in going with something this much lower in price?

Probably not sacrificing much, except for aesthetics.

 

[lovinthehd]

If the much cheaper amp theoretically accomplishes the same goal with similar/same results, why is it so cheap? Is there anything I would be sacrificing (besides aesthetics, which I care virtually nothing about) that I should consider in going with something this much lower in price?

I've used Crown XLS1500s (three of them) for several years, great little amps. FWIW the 1002 base model has poorer snr spec than the rest of the lineup. You actually gain features and connectivity over most consumer amps and can drive very low impedance loads. The aesthetics on the current generation are arguably nicer than the gen 1 I have...

 

[Soner]

I think his avr can do okay with amps that offer 29 dB gain or higher. He may be better off trading up to a RX-A2060 or Denon AVR-x3300w.

This is the first time I am considering these sorts of measurements. How would I know this? How would I know if the preamp in my AVR would clip, or if they are compatible with an external amp? Thanks for patience as I try to understand new information.

 

[KEW]

After reading mixed thoughts about Emotiva on these forums, I'm not sure what to make of them sans-personal experience. You would confidently suggest them?

I'm not especially in emotiva fanboy, but I do feel like there amps have consistently been good. They used to be very good bargains as well but in the last couple of years the value is not as good as it used to be.
They are still competitive, but they do not beat the competition consistently as they used to. But like I said their amplifiers have always been good their prepros have had problems.
However, I would go with the crown amplifiers. They are solid amps and if you're not worried about the aesthetic they are really the way to go! The reason they are so much less expensive is they are made for the professional audio industry.
The home audio industry has a higher profit margin and more worried about looks whereas the pro audio industry is all about reliability and performance and price.
These amps are made to go on the road with a band and be tossed around by the Roadies! They have fans in them but the crown are well established to be very quiet.

 

[PENG]

This is the first time I am considering these sorts of measurements. How would I know this? How would I know if the preamp in my AVR would clip, or if they are compatible with an external amp? Thanks for patience as I try to understand new information.

You know by searching out reviews that included bench test data. In my response to mtrot (post#44), I provided the link below, that I am repeating it to save you time.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

Pay attention to the first paragraph in the measurements section, the reviewer Gene said:

"The AVR-X5200W has plenty of grunt via the preamp outputs to use in conjunction with virtually any separate amplifier should you desire more power. I measured unclipped output of 4.5Vrms from every channel. We like to see at least 2Vrms and the Denon met this with over 6db of margin to spare."

With 2V preamp output, I calculated that it can drive a power amp with 26 dB gain (that would be considered low) rated 200 W into 8 ohms. If you pair it with power amps that offer gains of 28 dB, 2V preout would be good for a 315 W into 8 ohm rated amp.

Based on a few Denon and Marantz AVRs measured by Gene, I expect their mid/upper mid range models will have more than high enough preout voltages for most if not all power amps discussed on this forum. So I would say you should have no worry about the following models, just as examples.

Marantz: SR5010, SR6010, SR7010 or newer/higher models.
Denon: AVR-X3200W, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X3400H, or newer/higher models.

I would also take an educated guess that the following Yamaha AVRs can do the same.

RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 or newer/higher models.

You can spend a lot more money on higher end separate prepro or preamps, and you still have to find out if their preout voltages are higher enough, there is no short cut. Some high end components do provide more detailed specs, and if you think you can trust their published specs, then you don't have to search out the bench test results for them.

 

[Soner]

Again, thank you everyone for your thoughtful, detailed, and helpful responses. I am amazed by the willingness of those on this forum to help others.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays y'all!

 

[Soner]

The suggested Crown has adjustable sensitivity, of either .775V or 1.4V (the XLSxx02 models that is, first gen only had 1.4V). If it can't drive .775V that would be an avr I wouldn't want even some consumer amps need more than that....

Just to be sure I'm understanding...in spite of Yamaha's lack of providing preamp details, you suspect preamp output should be compatible with this Crown amp? From my reading, I have gathered (hopefully correctly) that one would want a higher preamp rating to ensure compatibility, 1.4 not being extremely low nor high. However, this Crown XLS1002 has a sensitivity as low as .775v, which any respectable receiver preamp should be able to power?

 

[KEW]

Just to be sure I'm understanding...in spite of Yamaha's lack of providing preamp details, you suspect preamp output should be compatible with this Crown amp? From my reading, I have gathered (hopefully correctly) that one would want a higher preamp rating to ensure compatibility, 1.4 not being extremely low nor high. However, this Crown XLS1002 has a sensitivity as low as .775v, which any respectable receiver preamp should be able to power?

Yep, even a dis-respectable receiver preamp should be able to manage 0.775v!

 

[lovinthehd]

Just to be sure I'm understanding...in spite of Yamaha's lack of providing preamp details, you suspect preamp output should be compatible with this Crown amp? From my reading, I have gathered (hopefully correctly) that one would want a higher preamp rating to ensure compatibility, 1.4 not being extremely low nor high. However, this Crown XLS1002 has a sensitivity as low as .775v, which any respectable receiver preamp should be able to power?

Not just Yamaha but many avr manufacturers don't provide a lot of detail in that regard, I did some research before going with the Crowns. I haven't used Yamaha so no experience. My weakest pre-out is probably the sub pre-out on my old cheap Sony, it doesn't do particularly well with the 1.4V Crowns but I don't need it to either, just tried it when I was testing stuff. I've not had an issue with my Denons or Onkyo.

Have read a couple times where people complained about certain Yamaha units with certain amps, couldn't tell you specifics aside from the ones AH tested specifically, tho. Your 779 (think same as a 7790 that Costco had ?) I didn't research....might look thru this thread for comments along those lines.

 

[jsrtheta]

I would forgo the SACD, as it makes no audible improvement (at least none that DBTs have revealed). If you already have SACDs, then I guess you're stuck, unless you just have a few of them.

You did not state your room size, so any advice on wattage would be shooting blind. As to speakers, I would not recommend either Infinity or Polk, but that's me. Still, there are much better sounding speakers out there for similar bread.

Tower speakers will only work if you have the room for it. If you don't, you don't need more wattage than you have. And if your room isn't big enough for floorstanding speakers, you will regret buying them for the rest of your life.

If you want to listen to music, why do you have a receiver? A good integrated will do what you want without all that needless garbage in the box. And whatever you get, get something that will at least give you a "direct" option. (Or simply buy something without tone controls.) FWIW, I used to use the power amp section of a Yamaha integrated with a separate preamp, and it sounded just fine.

Not to aggravate things, but any well-constructed cable will sound like any other. Do not waste your money on cables.

 

[PENG]

Have read a couple times where people complained about certain Yamaha units with certain amps, couldn't tell you specifics aside from the ones AH tested specifically, tho. Your 779 (think same as a 7790 that Costco had ?) I didn't research....might look thru this thread for comments along those lines.

I did search for bench test data for that unit but couldn't find anything, but I think we can safely assume the RX-V779's preout won't be any better than the AH reviewed RX-V860. That means for Crown audio he probably should start with the XLS 1502. The XLS 1002 could be a better deal for people who don't need so much power, but as you pointed out before, that has much lower SN and that won't do well with AVR that has relatively lower preout output voltage.