Next Step: Receiver/Amp or Integrated?

[mtrot]

Progress!

Well, we'll see. Just as I said I'm skeptical of manufacturer claims, and I am, I'm also skeptical of claims that I'm not really hearing what I hear.

So, for comparison purposes, can you suggest a set of speaker cables to try out a 9 foot length of? Keep in mind that my power amp is a 400 wpc Krell, which is played into a set of 4 ohm very large floor standing speakers. I need spade connections on the amp end and bananas on the speaker end.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, we'll see. Just as I said I'm skeptical of manufacturer claims, and I am, I'm also skeptical of claims that I'm not really hearing what I hear.

So, for comparison purposes, can you suggest a set of speaker cables to try out a 9 foot length of? Keep in mind that my power amp is a 400 wpc Krell, which is played into a set of 4 ohm very large floor standing speakers. I need spade connections on the amp end and bananas on the speaker end.

I use more powerful amps at longer distance for a variety of impedance loads and simply buy this https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2790. I put my own fittings on as needed, prefer speakon on my own builds, mostly have banana, never had much use for spade connectors. You can go to someone like BlueJeanCables.com and they'll make you a very nice (and prettier) set using similar wire and whatever fittings you like, probably get a color choice if you want.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

For the OP, regardless of whether or not some "experts" think expensive cables are "fairy dust", the relevant question is if they SOUND DIFFERENT from each other and from zip cord to your ears. ...

And how will he compare the cables without being misled by the human subconscious.
Yes, that happens all the time and fools the listener that a nonexistent audible difference is there.
And, as to your perception of differences, you claimed it without evidence. Or, did I miss the evidence?
One's imagination is suspect in this case.
So, without a proper controlled comparison, the opinion has value only to the claimant if then.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So explain how you compared your cables. Or are you using cables with electronics in line to act as some sort of weird tone control?

Better be active electronics, not passive.

 

[Soner]

My reservation with this is if you get amp and speakers, you may be putting money into an amp that could be spent upgrading to yet better speakers.

Again, thank you. You have been very helpful. I agree that putting most of my money toward better speakers would be ideal. However, I don't think my present receiver can adequately power them without the use of an external amp. So, given your comments and others, I think my best bet with my current situation and budget would be to get the better amp and better speakers as opposed to integrated and speakers. At least this way I'll be able to upgrade to a better pre-amp in the future if the Yamaha AVR proves lacking in this area.

Also, how do I know if the amp has "good gain" or if my receiver is clipping?

Thank you,
Soner

 

[Soner]

And how will he compare the cables without being misled by the human subconscious.

Fair point, I appreciate both sides that are being represented here, so thank you for you responses. However, I am not at this stage thinking as much about such things, possibly to the detriment of my experience. I'm trying to take it one step at a time without getting overwhelmed by an influx of possible components, as necessary as these are to achieving the highest fidelity in my setup. When I get to that point, I will revisit and consider. So, thank you for your help.

Cheers,
Soner

 

[highfigh]

Okay, I read most of that article and it is a very interesting read. I actually hope that what he's saying is true -- ha ha, it might save me some money. Perhaps I'll revisit the situation and try comparing some basic heavy gauge speaker cable with some of the cables I have on hand. My cable run is about 9 feet. I could sell off some stuff and help fund that new 4K TV.

At 9', I seriously doubt any cables' influence will be audible.

 

[highfigh]

Again, thank you. You have been very helpful. I agree that putting most of my money toward better speakers would be ideal. However, I don't think my present receiver can adequately power them without the use of an external amp. So, given your comments and others, I think my best bet with my current situation and budget would be to get the better amp and better speakers as opposed to integrated and speakers. At least this way I'll be able to upgrade to a better pre-amp in the future if the Yamaha AVR proves lacking in this area.

Also, how do I know if the amp has "good gain" or if my receiver is clipping?

Thank you,
Soner

What is the distance from your main seat to the speakers and how loud do you want it to be? For most levels, the AVR should be fine, but if you really want to have headroom and higher SPL, you will need an amp. The preamp in the AVR shouldn't clip.

 

[Andrein]

Whould be nice to find OP's avr measurements to know if its preouts are ok to work with external amps. Regarding cables, with 9ft almost any cables can be used without any effect on quality.

 

[PENG]

Whould be nice to find OP's avr measurements to know if its preouts are ok to work with external amps. Regarding cables, with 9ft almost any cables can be used without any effect on quality.

I think his avr can do okay with amps that offer 29 dB gain or higher. He may be better off trading up to a RX-A2060 or Denon AVR-x3300w.

 

[KEW]

Again, thank you. You have been very helpful. I agree that putting most of my money toward better speakers would be ideal. However, I don't think my present receiver can adequately power them without the use of an external amp. So, given your comments and others, I think my best bet with my current situation and budget would be to get the better amp and better speakers as opposed to integrated and speakers. At least this way I'll be able to upgrade to a better pre-amp in the future if the Yamaha AVR proves lacking in this area.

Also, how do I know if the amp has "good gain" or if my receiver is clipping?

Thank you,
Soner

Peng is more knowledgeable in this area than I. So heed his advice here!

I think his avr can do okay with amps that offer 29 dB gain or higher. He may be better off trading up to a RX-A2060 or Denon AVR-x3300w.

If we know for certain what speakers you are getting, we could better evaluate your AVR/amp needs.

If you are happy with the feature set of your 779, Emotiva is one of few companies that states their gain level and both the A-150 and A-300 have 29 dB gain:
https://emotiva.com/product-category/basx-series/

If you have reason to upgrade your AVR, you'd do well to get one of the AVR's Peng mentions which are known (measured) to produce solid power into both 8 and 4 ohms.

 

[Soner]

Peng is more knowledgeable in this area than I. So heed his advice here!



If we know for certain what speakers you are getting, we could better evaluate your AVR/amp needs.

The speakers I would get depends upon the price of amp (again, on a budget). I would either get Polk Tsi500's or Elac f6's.

 

[Soner]

As far as the amp I'm looking at, Marantz MM7025

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd still hold off on changing the amplification and concentrate on better speakers....

 

[PENG]

As far as the amp I'm looking at, Marantz MM7025

That amp doesn't offer more power than a mid range AVR. You are better off with a Denon AVR-X4x00H Marantz SR701x or Yamaha RX-A20x0 or higher models.

 

[KEW]

As far as the amp I'm looking at, Marantz MM7025

I could not find a gain spec for that amp. But I suspect the Marantz may fall short of the 29dB criteria. Emotiva is fairly unique in providing such a high gain structure (which can prove problematically susceptible to pre-amp noise). For example, the Outlaw 5000 (rare in that they provide this spec)
I don't know what happened to the Japanese tradition of honor/shame, but Yamaha has definitely brought shame to themselves for not providing a decent pre-amp output from their receivers which are lacking in power!
If you decide to go with an amp, I would either get the Outlaw 5000 or an Emotiva amp. Both publish a 29dB gain rating. The Outlaw 2200 is 27dB. These will save you some money as well, unless you have a special deal on the Marantz used, etc.
If you only listen to stereo with a sub in a 2.1 configuration, I suspect your AVR has enough power for most speakers, however, if you like to go for the full blown theater experience in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, all bets are off.

To Lovinthehd's point, we don't know that your amp is one of the weak ones. There do not appear to be any measurements available! You can go ahead and get speakers and see f you hear increased distortion at the higher levels you might listen.
The only problem is you won't know whether you need to budget for amp or not when you are buying your speakers.

 

[PENG]

Peng is more knowledgeable in this area than I. So heed his advice here!



If we know for certain what speakers you are getting, we could better evaluate your AVR/amp needs.

If you are happy with the feature set of your 779, Emotiva is one of few companies that states their gain level and both the A-150 and A-300 have 29 dB gain:
https://emotiva.com/product-category/basx-series/

If you have reason to upgrade your AVR, you'd do well to get one of the AVR's Peng mentions which are known (measured) to produce solid power into both 8 and 4 ohms.

Thank you for the kind words, I do have it's bigger brother, the MM8003, that I know has 29 dB voltage gain. So I downloaded the manual for the MM7025/7055 to see if they do the same, and they do, 29 dB as well.

I did my research after I purchased the MM8003 and found that based on the S&V measurements it had quite a bit less power output than the Denon AVR-4308 that I still owned at the time. The MM7025, 7055 and the new MM8077 did even worse than the older MM8003 despite their fewer number of channels.

It seems that we all feel the OP may not benefit from an amp. If he does need one, he should go with something more powerful than the MM7025 that is just a glorified two channel receiver without the tuner.

 

[mtrot]

Thank you for the kind words, I do have it's bigger brother, the MM8003, that I know has 29 dB voltage gain. So I downloaded the manual for the MM7025/7055 to see if they do the same, and they do, 29 dB as well.

I did my research after I purchased the MM8003 and found that based on the S&V measurements it had quite a bit less power output than the Denon AVR-4308 that I still owned at the time. The MM7025, 7055 and the new MM8077 did even worse than the older MM8003 despite their fewer number of channels.

It seems that we all feel the OP may not benefit from an amp. If he does need one, he should go with something more powerful than the MM7025 that is just a glorified two channel receiver without the tuner.

Agreed. But, if the OP does elect to get a separate amp, for the price of that Marantz MM7205, there are a plethora of quality power amps available on Audiogon and other internet sites. Something along the lines of a McCormack DNA-1 is a highly regarded power amp, at 185 watts per channel, and may be found at the same or lower price.

I also agree that new/better speakers would be the first thing to do at this point. With the myriad of speaker options out there, it should be possible to find a clear upgrade in speakers that is also a relatively easy amplifier load, such that they could be used either with his current receiver or an upgrade receiver or amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that if you are going to buy an amp, make it 200 WPC or more.

Just get a $229 200 WPC Crown Amp from Amazon and try it out. You have 30 days to return it.

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLi800-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00AR0A3V4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1514062318&sr=8-3&keywords=crown+amp

 

[KEW]

Agreed. But, if the OP does elect to get a separate amp, for the price of that Marantz MM7205, there are a plethora of quality power amps available on Audiogon and other internet sites. Something along the lines of a McCormack DNA-1 is a highly regarded power amp, at 185 watts per channel, and may be found at the same or lower price.

I also agree that new/better speakers would be the first thing to do at this point. With the myriad of speaker options out there, it should be possible to find a clear upgrade in speakers that is also a relatively easy amplifier load, such that they could be used either with his current receiver or an upgrade receiver or amp.

The problem is that Yamaha has chosen to provide very weak pre-amp outputs on their low-mid level AVR's and he cannot just pick any amp and expect compatibility.
For more on this, read the link I provided in post #17!