KEF question

[PENG]

When thinking about amps, it is good to think about amp power as well as amp current capacity. For distortion free loudness, amp power is important. But for dynamic accuracy, current capacity may play a larger role. My Parasound amp is 75 watts per channel at 8 ohms (125 watts at 4 ohms) but can supply 20 amps of current for dynamic needs.

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True, but if you focus on well designed amps and even receivers that can handle low impedance well, then there is no need to consider current because for such amps, higher power rating automatically implies higher current rating, all else being equal.

 

[KEW]

You need to buy them back to explore further, now you guys are getting tax break, since you prefer accuracy right? They have the Soundstage and Stereophile graphs to prove it, no need to believe me and Ponzio!!

On order!

I always recognized them as very accurate, it was the dispersion or something about the way they projected sound into my room that didn't seem right. But I auditioned them in a fairly large room and will try a more intimate setting.

Any tips on set up?
Toe in?

Edit: I will believe the tax break is a tax break when I see the bottom line!

 

[Steve81]

Any tips on set up? Toe in?

My 2 cents:
1. Cross to a sub as high as possible.
2. For a toe in, one thing to try is a "cross-fire" arrangement, where the speakers are toed in a little ahead of the listening position.

 

[shkumar4963]

True, but if you focus on well designed amps and even receivers that can handle low impedance well, then there is no need to consider current because for such amps, higher power rating automatically implies higher current rating, all else being equal.

Well. True. But high power amps are an overkill. What you really need is a low power amp but with high current for dynamic needs. High power amps spend ( waste) a lot of money building an amp that can provide sustained high power and current. The heat management itself becomes expensive. Just my two cents.

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[ematthews]

Well. True. But high power amps are an overkill. What you really need is a low power amp but with high current for dynamic needs. High power amps spend ( waste) a lot of money building an amp that can provide sustained high power and current. The heat management itself becomes expensive. Just my two cents.

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Maybe why class A is expensive, the way it works in the first 30 and heat.

 

[KEW]

Well. True. But high power amps are an overkill. What you really need is a low power amp but with high current for dynamic needs. High power amps spend ( waste) a lot of money building an amp that can provide sustained high power and current. The heat management itself becomes expensive. Just my two cents.

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I follow your statement and it makes sense, but I am not sure if the price really breaks in favor of low powered amps with high current abilities.
Can you please provide an example of a low powered amp with high current for dynamic needs?
Thanks!

 

[PENG]

Well. True. But high power amps are an overkill. What you really need is a low power amp but with high current for dynamic needs. High power amps spend ( waste) a lot of money building an amp that can provide sustained high power and current. The heat management itself becomes expensive. Just my two cents.

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You can get a Monolith 2X200W amp for $875, or less for a Emotiva amp so it matters not even if it is an overkill for people who don't need sustained high power.

I do get your point, the 2X80W NAD C356Bee or even the tiny 2X50W C326 Bee (I have one) are probably good enough for a lot of people who don't need sustained higher power output. Most of my amps are rated >200 WPC but that little NAD, or my Denon AVR-3805 can be put in any of my 2 channel systems, and I wouldn't know it as long as I don't use my eyes to listen. My point though, is that high current amps are no big deals nowadays as they are widely available. My AVR-3805 can handle impedance dip down to 2 or even 1 ohm (can still output >100W without clipping into such loads, short term only obviously). Most D&M, and Yamaha's upper middle receivers can deliver relatively high current like the NAD amps during the occasional impedance dips of 8 or 4 ohm nominal speakers to 4 ohms and below. I use NAD as example because they often boast their dynamic capability, though I always thought their so called IHF dynamic power rating are too optimistic.

 

[Ponzio]

Haha, so my sub is bigger than yours!! I have two SVS in for my HT, but E15HP for the tiny precious LS50's, none for the Focal though so I guess we are still even assuming you do have one for the LS50 as well but just another 12"?.

Nah, I'm using the first sub I ever bought in the early 2000's, a humble little 8" Velodyne DLS-3500, along with the LS-50's.

More than happy with the results in my 20'x20' bedroom when I crank it up to take a shower. While the missus isn't amused, she's still very proud of herself for finding them in a local B&M shop. I was ready to purchase a pair of Epos M12.2 bookshelf's at the time. Even though they were $500 more she insisted I buy the LS-50's instead, based on how they looked and sounded. I personally wasn't excited about the looks but there was no denying how well they sounded. God I love that gal. I wrote up about the journey & impressions on finding them.
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/best-pair-of-speakers-around-1k-with-solid-state-yamaha-avr.86094/

 

[PENG]

I follow your statement and it makes sense, but I am not sure if the price really breaks in favor of low powered amps with high current abilities.
Can you please provide an example of a low powered amp with high current for dynamic needs?
Thanks!

I read your post after I posted mine. I tried to make the same point you did, but not as skillful or diplomatic as you managed to do. Funny enough, I almost wrote in word for word as your last sentence but didn't do it in the end, obviously there's no need after all.

 

[PENG]

On order!

Any tips on set up?
Toe in?

I am not sure about toe in because in my room it doesn't seem to make enough difference. Steve is probably right about setting the crossover high. I would add that if you don't push them, such as listening to 70 dB average sitting <10 ft from them, even running them full range may be fine. If you go anywhere need reference level (still 10 ft away), then I suggest you set XO to 120 Hz.

In addition to the Stereophle review, there is another one that is worth reading. Not the subjective part but the measurements. You can see the relatively high distortions at the lower frequencies. Those speakers are not really suitable for people who like their music loud and/or bassy, unless they do so in a small room, say smaller than 12X25X8 ft.

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/557-kef-ls50-loudspeakers

 

[shkumar4963]

You can get a Monolith 2X200W amp for $875, or less for a Emotiva amp so it matters not even if it is an overkill for people who don't need sustained high power.

I do get your point, the 2X80W NAD C356Bee or even the tiny 2X50W C326 Bee (I have one) are probably good enough for a lot of people who don't need sustained higher power output. Most of my amps are rated >200 WPC but that little NAD, or my Denon AVR-3805 can be put in any of my 2 channel systems, and I wouldn't know it as long as I don't use my eyes to listen. My point though, is that high current amps are no big deals nowadays as they are widely available. My AVR-3805 can handle impedance dip down to 2 or even 1 ohm (can still output >100W without clipping into such loads, short term only obviously). Most D&M, and Yamaha's upper middle receivers can deliver relatively high current like the NAD amps during the occasional impedance dips of 8 or 4 ohm nominal speakers to 4 ohms and below. I use NAD as example because they often boast their dynamic capability, though I always thought their so called IHF dynamic power rating are too optimistic.

Agreed.

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[shkumar4963]

I have not shopped for amps lately, but the last time i shopped, that was how I felt.

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[KEW]

I read your post after I posted mine. I tried to make the same point you did, but not as skillful or diplomatic as you managed to do. Funny enough, I almost wrote in word for word as your last sentence but didn't do it in the end, obviously there's no need after all.

Maybe, but as usual your post had more specific factual information content!

I'll get my ls50's on Thursday (barring UPS overload). Looking forward to giving them a longer evaluation. The last ones I bought from a local shop. The owner was vague about the return policy and I was a little worried that he might ding me with a restocking fee if I sat on them for too long. Unfortunately I was strapped for time and the week I had them probably only translated to ~4 hours of listening.

 

[KEW]

I am not sure about toe in because in my room it doesn't seem to make enough difference. Steve is probably right about setting the crossover high. I would add that if you don't push them, such as listening to 70 dB average sitting <10 ft from them, even running them full range may be fine. If you go anywhere need reference level (still 10 ft away), then I suggest you set XO to 120 Hz.

In addition to the Stereophle review, there is another one that is worth reading. Not the subjective part but the measurements. You can see the relatively high distortions at the lower frequencies. Those speakers are not really suitable for people who like their music loud and/or bassy, unless they do so in a small room, say smaller than 12X25X8 ft.

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/557-kef-ls50-loudspeakers

I generally don't listen loud and am not a basshead, but will use a sub since that is what I would end up with!
I'm curious and you might know - the soundstagehifi FR is notated as "measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m"! Do you have any idea what that is about? Do they adjust distance depending on where the drivers best blend? Doesn't seem like this would be that much of a factor in a concentric speaker!

 

[shkumar4963]

I generally don't listen loud and am not a basshead, but will use a sub since that is what I would end up with!
I'm curious and you might know - the soundstagehifi FR is notated as "measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m"! Do you have any idea what that is about? Do they adjust distance depending on where the drivers best blend? Doesn't seem like this would be that much of a factor in a concentric speaker!

From sound stage network website:

Measurement distance

All small- and medium-sized loudspeakers are measured at a distance of 2 meters (6.5 feet). Where appropriate, larger loudspeakers are measured from a distance of 3 meters (9.75 feet) to allow for proper driver integration.



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[PENG]

I'm curious and you might know - the soundstagehifi FR is notated as "measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m"! Do you have any idea what that is about? Do they adjust distance depending on where the drivers best blend? Doesn't seem like this would be that much of a factor in a concentric speaker!

I am sure that literally meant they were measured @2m, but plotted the graph @1m. That's easy to do because the spl will just drop 6 dB across the board. I assume they want the graph to be normalized to 1m that corresponds with speaker sensitivity specs.

Below are links to articles that you may find interesting to read.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/test_loudspeakers.htm

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/156-high-performance-loudspeakers-measurements-scare-the-hell-out-of-some-people

 

[PENG]

Honestly.... I don’t think I like accurate speakers. After a long second weekend with the LS50’s, I prefer the Polk LSIM 703’s. This happened with headphones too. I had Beyerdynamic T1 phones and ended up preferring the Vmoda headphone sound. Less accurate and a little bass heavy but I then sold the 1000 Beyers. Guess I would make a horrible reviewer. So. Not sure I’m ready to send them back yet.

The 703 did measure poorer in THD except in the lower range <250 Hz.

LS50

LSiM703

 

[Beave]

Poorer in the mids and highs - but better in the bass.

But as Dr. Toole himself has pointed out many times, those THD measurements don't easily correlate to sound quality or listener preference. THD audibility (or lack thereof) is very complex and can't be captured with a simple sweep like this.

 

[Beave]

FWIW, if you look at the 'listening window' plots, you'll see that the Polks are very flat (neutral?), except for a small hump in the midbass.

 

[PENG]

FWIW, if you look at the 'listening window' plots, you'll see that the Polks are very flat (neutral?), except for a small hump in the midbass.

Agree, in my earlier post I did say "I thought the LSIM series are in the accuracy group..".