KEF question

[killdozzer]

a common truth about the LS50's is that they crave power. the more the merrier and the better they sound. I noticed that when I went from a Yammy 2040 to the 3040. the neutral tonal quality doesn't change one bit but the details and dynamics improved.

This is something I'm interested in. How loud do you usually play your music?

(What I really want to ask is at what levels do you start noticing the difference, but I have a feeling this is much harder to determine and convey to others) I'm trying to determine should I go for a stronger amp than my 65Wpch into 8Ohms Yamaha avr when the time comes and if I get the chance?

Now, I know about calculating loudness (SPL), but I'm interested in those impedance dips and the exact nature of that hunger for power everyone is talking about. Most reviews I read on LS50's say they like far more watts than factory rating. One reviewer stated that they started singing only with 250Wpch. OTOH many members here say that with overkills you have a lot of power just sitting there not being used.

How strong is your current amp for these KEF's?

 

[Ponzio]

This is something I'm interested in. How loud do you usually play your music?

(What I really want to ask is at what levels do you start noticing the difference, but I have a feeling this is much harder to determine and convey to others) I'm trying to determine should I go for a stronger amp than my 65Wpch into 8Ohms Yamaha avr when the time comes and if I get the chance?

Now, I know about calculating loudness (SPL), but I'm interested in those impedance dips and the exact nature of that hunger for power everyone is talking about. Most reviews I read on LS50's say they like far more watts than factory rating. One reviewer stated that they started singing only with 250Wpch. OTOH many members here say that with overkills you have a lot of power just sitting there not being used.

How strong is your current amp for these KEF's?

With the LS50's (with a Velodyne sub) in "Straight" mode (LR speakers + sub) in tandem with the Yamaha RX-A2040 ... I moved the RX-A3040 to my living room for my Focal speakers ... I have the volume level set to -22.0dB for normal listening. I really start to hear a difference when I bump it up to -18.0dB. They're being used in a 20'x20' room. The RX-A2040 is rated at 140W (2chanel - 8ohm).

Sorry I don't own a SPL meter, so I don't have a clue on what the loudness level is and I would agree that 250W is overkill.

 

[PENG]

With the LS50's (with a Velodyne sub) in "Straight" mode (LR speakers + sub) in tandem with the Yamaha RX-A2040 ... I moved the RX-A3040 to my living room for my Focal speakers ... I have the volume level set to -22.0dB for normal listening. I really start to hear a difference when I bump it up to -18.0dB. They're being used in a 20'x20' room. The RX-A2040 is rated at 140W (2chanel - 8ohm).

Sorry I don't own a SPL meter, so I don't have a clue on what the loudness level is and I would agree that 250W is overkill.

If the levels are set the same or similar, at -18 the power output would be very low, such that even during a 20 dB peaks it would still be lower than the rated output of the 2040. You really need to do a simple blind test to confirm if it's just Placebo effect.

I have tested mine n times, and can say with certainty that if you hear better sq from a slightly more powerful RX-A amp though those speakers, it is either Placebo effect, or something else is wrong It will definitely NOT be because of that extra few watts that was never called upon. I don't usually use words like "definitely not" but I have no qualm using it in this post.

 

[Ponzio]

If the levels are set the same or similar, at -18 the power output would be very low, such that even during a 20 dB peaks it would still be lower than the rated output of the 2040. You really need to do a simple blind test to confirm if it's just Placebo effect.

I have tested mine n times, and can say with certainty that if you hear better sq from a slightly more powerful RX-A amp though those speakers, it is either Placebo effect, or something else is wrong It will definitely NOT be because of that extra few watts that was never called upon. I don't usually use words like "definitely not" but I have no qualm using it in this post.

What can I say? U caught me. I took a couple of placebo tablets before I increased the volume level from -22 to -18. I guess it's all in my head and not my ears.

 

[ematthews]

This is something I'm interested in. How loud do you usually play your music?

(What I really want to ask is at what levels do you start noticing the difference, but I have a feeling this is much harder to determine and convey to others) I'm trying to determine should I go for a stronger amp than my 65Wpch into 8Ohms Yamaha avr when the time comes and if I get the chance?

Now, I know about calculating loudness (SPL), but I'm interested in those impedance dips and the exact nature of that hunger for power everyone is talking about. Most reviews I read on LS50's say they like far more watts than factory rating. One reviewer stated that they started singing only with 250Wpch. OTOH many members here say that with overkills you have a lot of power just sitting there not being used.

How strong is your current amp for these KEF's?

I am running the ATI 2002 amp. 200WPC 8ohms.

 

[PENG]

This is something I'm interested in. How loud do you usually play your music?

(What I really want to ask is at what levels do you start noticing the difference, but I have a feeling this is much harder to determine and convey to others) I'm trying to determine should I go for a stronger amp than my 65Wpch into 8Ohms Yamaha avr when the time comes and if I get the chance?

Now, I know about calculating loudness (SPL), but I'm interested in those impedance dips and the exact nature of that hunger for power everyone is talking about. Most reviews I read on LS50's say they like far more watts than factory rating. One reviewer stated that they started singing only with 250Wpch. OTOH many members here say that with overkills you have a lot of power just sitting there not being used.

How strong is your current amp for these KEF's?

Every situation is different. I have driven those speakers with various preamps/amps including Marantz (vintage), AVR, NAD integrated, CA pre/Halo power amp (250W 8 ohm, 400W 4 ohm), with and without subwoofer; and found any of them seemed to have more than enough power output for those speakers in my room for the spl I need. In fact, even my 50W rated NAD C326BEE was good with them.

Room size is about 11.5X25X9 ft, mic was about 10 ft from the speakers. To get 70-75 dB from 10 ft, power draw would be less than 0.5W (much less most of the time) average per channel, based on the power meter readings on the SM7 as well as measurements I took in several occasions.

I plotted some graphs with REW under the same conditions, just to see how their FR compared, as heard by the mic.

 

[PENG]

What can I say? U caught me. I took a couple of placebo tablets before I increased the volume level from -22 to -18. I guess it's all in my head and not my ears.

Nobody got caught, you heard what you heard, I cited Placebo as a possibility only, not as fact. The only thing I was sure about was that the few extra watts of superiority of the 3040 could not have been the cause for the perceived difference, presumably better, sound quality.

The 2040 was rated 140W, 8 ohm at 0.06% vs the 3040's 150W. S&V bench tested the 2040, with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 169.7 watts and 1% distortion at 195.9 watts. Into 4 ohms, the left channel reaches 0.1% distortion at 259.8 watts and 1% distortion at 317.1 watts.

That's actually better than the 150W rated 3060, also tested by S&V, with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 159.0 watts and 1% distortion at 186.4 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 228.7 watts and 1% distortion at 294.3 watts.

The RX-A2040 has more than enough "clean" power for the LS50 that are mainly designed for near field enjoyment in smaller rooms and are suitable for people who enjoy their music loud. Given their impedance and phase angle graphs, I do believe they need good quality amps that are rated for 100 WPC into 4 ohms, if they are to be used to near their limits.

By the way, you mentioned Focal, I have a pair of Focal too, the 1028 Be. How would you compare your Focal with the KEF?

 

[Ponzio]

Nobody got caught, you heard what you heard, I cited Placebo as a possibility only, not as fact. The only thing I was sure about was that the few extra watts of superiority of the 3040 could not have been the cause for the perceived difference, presumably better, sound quality.

The 2040 was rated 140W, 8 ohm at 0.06% vs the 3040's 150W. S&V bench tested the 2040, with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 169.7 watts and 1% distortion at 195.9 watts. Into 4 ohms, the left channel reaches 0.1% distortion at 259.8 watts and 1% distortion at 317.1 watts.

That's actually better than the 150W rated 3060, also tested by S&V, with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 159.0 watts and 1% distortion at 186.4 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 228.7 watts and 1% distortion at 294.3 watts.

The RX-A2040 has more than enough "clean" power for the LS50 that are mainly designed for near field enjoyment in smaller rooms and are suitable for people who enjoy their music loud. Given their impedance and phase angle graphs, I do believe they need good quality amps that are rated for 100 WPC into 4 ohms, if they are to be used to near their limits.

By the way, you mentioned Focal, I have a pair of Focal too, the 1028 Be. How would you compare your Focal with the KEF?

Too funny. I own a pair of the 1027Be's. The Focal's obviously have more detail at the top end but overall I'd say they both have a "realistic" sound or neutral or whatever and both are enhanced by a sub [duh, no kidding?]. I mated the Focal's with a single SVS PB12-NSD sub.

I get what ur saying about the power. What I should have said is that the LS50's come more "alive" and revealing as u increase the volume level, more so than any other speakers I've heard or have and not just because of the increased application of power, via the volume level. Word's fail me at times.

 

[PENG]

Too funny. I own a pair of the 1027Be's. The Focal's obviously have more detail at the top end but overall I'd say they both have a "realistic" sound or neutral or whatever and both are enhanced by a sub [duh, no kidding?]. I mated the Focal's with a single SVS PB12-NSD sub.

I get what ur saying about the power. What I should have said is that the LS50's come more "alive" and revealing as u increase the volume level, more so than any other speakers I've heard or have and not just because of the increased application of power, via the volume level. Word's fail me at times.

Thank you, I also feel they are both very enjoyable. If the recording is good, the violin can sound a little sweeter on the Focal, but then it costs 6X. In my room I don't feel the need to add a sub to the Focal, but the LS50 needs one for the most part. I have listened to a lot of speakers and for what I paid, nothing beats the LS50 yet.

 

[ematthews]

Honestly.... I don’t think I like accurate speakers. After a long second weekend with the LS50’s, I prefer the Polk LSIM 703’s. This happened with headphones too. I had Beyerdynamic T1 phones and ended up preferring the Vmoda headphone sound. Less accurate and a little bass heavy but I then sold the 1000 Beyers. Guess I would make a horrible reviewer. So. Not sure I’m ready to send them back yet.

 

[KEW]

I have listened to a lot of speakers and for what I paid, nothing beats the LS50 yet.

I know the pricing runs differently in Canada, but if you get the chance, I would suggest these as a speaker to try out (they actually retail for the same price). As you know my problem with the ls50 was related to dispersion (I think), but I did appreciate many of their other attributes. The Vento will not compete for imaging, of course, but I do believe these are fair competition for the ls50 (before I ding them for my personal preferences). The ceramic Canton tweeter actually does a better job with Symphonic Chimes than the Focal (fullness of Symphonic Chimes being the most revealing sound that the Focal tweeters beat out the Paradigm Be tweeter on)
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cantvento8202blka/canton-vento-820.2-2-way-6in-bookshelf-speaker-black-gloss-pair/1.html#!more

 

[KEW]

Too funny. I own a pair of the 1027Be's.

Damn, now we need to figure out if you are Bizarro PENG or if Peng is Bizarro Ponzio (which has an interesting ring to it!)!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BizarroUniverse

 

[Ponzio]

Thank you, I also feel they are both very enjoyable. If the recording is good, the violin can sound a little sweeter on the Focal, but then it costs 6X. In my room I don't feel the need to add a sub to the Focal, but the LS50 needs one for the most part. I have listened to a lot of speakers and for what I paid, nothing beats the LS50 yet.

Exactly. At their price point they're unbeatable.

The sub was purchased for the HT (home theatre; 5.1 setup) crowd, when the family gets together to watch an action or sci-fi movie.

 

[Ponzio]

Honestly.... I don’t think I like accurate speakers. After a long second weekend with the LS50’s, I prefer the Polk LSIM 703’s. This happened with headphones too. I had Beyerdynamic T1 phones and ended up preferring the Vmoda headphone sound. Less accurate and a little bass heavy but I then sold the 1000 Beyers. Guess I would make a horrible reviewer. So. Not sure I’m ready to send them back yet.

Have u checked out any Wharfdale model's? Quite a few B&M shops around here (Philly area) carry the line.

 

[PENG]

Exactly. At their price point they're unbeatable.

The sub was purchased for the HT (home theatre; 5.1 setup) crowd, when the family gets together to watch an action or sci-fi movie.

Haha, so my sub is bigger than yours!! I have two SVS in for my HT, but E15HP for the tiny precious LS50's, none for the Focal though so I guess we are still even assuming you do have one for the LS50 as well but just another 12"?.

 

[PENG]

Damn, now we need to figure out if you are Bizarro PENG or if Peng is Bizarro Ponzio (which has an interesting ring to it!)!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BizarroUniverse

You need to buy them back to explore further, now you guys are getting tax break, since you prefer accuracy right? They have the Soundstage and Stereophile graphs to prove it, no need to believe me and Ponzio!!

 

[PENG]

Honestly.... I don’t think I like accurate speakers. After a long second weekend with the LS50’s, I prefer the Polk LSIM 703’s. This happened with headphones too. I had Beyerdynamic T1 phones and ended up preferring the Vmoda headphone sound. Less accurate and a little bass heavy but I then sold the 1000 Beyers. Guess I would make a horrible reviewer. So. Not sure I’m ready to send them back yet.

I thought the LSIM series are in the accuracy group too. If you like sweet sound that are not necessarily artificially "warm", try B&W diamonds, or Focal Be kind of speakers, cost a little more but still affordable compared to KEF's. Again, I suggest you stop spending time on amps, anything at the ATI's level will get you over the point of diminishing return where only the room, recording/mastering, speakers matter. Been there, done that!!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Honestly.... I don’t think I like accurate speakers. After a long second weekend with the LS50’s, I prefer the Polk LSIM 703’s. This happened with headphones too. I had Beyerdynamic T1 phones and ended up preferring the Vmoda headphone sound. Less accurate and a little bass heavy but I then sold the 1000 Beyers. Guess I would make a horrible reviewer. So. Not sure I’m ready to send them back yet.

Your preference towards, shall I say, a manipulated frequency response, is very common. On typical recordings, especially for classic rock and old movies, a reaction I often hear is "Where's the bass?" Or, "The system sounds a little dull." I've fallen for it myself, in our HT system. The Klipsch's I like so much for HT aren't as accurate as I demand for music, but speech intelligibility and overall excitement is very good. TV and movie audio is completely manipulated anyway, so I just go with it.

The quest for accuracy in acoustic music is an acquired obsession. I didn't really get an acute case until about 2006, when my wife got back into being a musician and I was around live music a lot. And now when listening to many recordings that I once thought were pretty good, I'm cursing the recording engineer or the producer. The drums are too far back in the mix. That guitar must be ten feet long. Itzhak Perlman's violin must be enormous. The saxophones are miniature. So many recordings have a bass boost centered around 50Hz.

I think I was happier before accuracy was so important to me.

When I've helped people position their speakers and subs for smoothest response at the listening seat, I've only had a couple who thought it was an improvement. Most like exaggerated bass and some hotness in the upper mids. I don't measure other people's systems much any more. It just causes friction. People like what they like. I say just get comfortable with it.

 

[ematthews]

I thought the LSIM series are in the accuracy group too. If you like sweet sound that are not necessarily artificially "warm", try B&W diamonds, or Focal Be kind of speakers, cost a little more but still affordable compared to KEF's. Again, I suggest you stop spending time on amps, anything at the ATI's level will get you over the point of diminishing return where only the room, recording/mastering, speakers matter. Been there, done that!!

NO NO.. No time on Amps for me. My ATI is and end game for me. LSI may be in the accuracy department, but they sound much more full. Or have more body to them.

 

[shkumar4963]

When thinking about amps, it is good to think about amp power as well as amp current capacity. For distortion free loudness, amp power is important. But for dynamic accuracy, current capacity may play a larger role. My Parasound amp is 75 watts per channel at 8 ohms (125 watts at 4 ohms) but can supply 20 amps of current for dynamic needs.

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