Do floor standing speakers even make sense when used with a sub?

Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
The RP-150ms in my setup have a sensitivity of 93dB. I know Klipsch rates their sensitivity specs based on room gain, but either way, it seems accurate enough, since I certainly won’t be using them outdoors :). When compared side by side to a pair of Polk OWM3s, which are spec’d at 89 dB, the polks measure exactly 3dB quieter, and I can say they are certainly much louder than any other speaker I’ve compared them to at the same volume. My brother bought a receiver off me I was originally using before hand, paired them with a set of towers rated at 88dB, and upon calibrating his system for him, I changed the trim settings from -3dB to +4dB to calibrate to Reference level, despite his seating being 2’ closer to the fronts than mine.

A pair of RP 250f towers uses the same tweeter mounted to the same horn, but includes a second 5.25” woofer, and a bigger cabinet with an f3 of 35hz vs 47hz. They’re rated at 96dB vs 93dB, I assume the limiting factor in sensitivity is the woofers, since horn loaded tweeters often have sensitivities in excess of 100dB. My front three speakers are all crossed over at 60hz, port tuning and minimal excursion point is 63hz.

I would assume that the biggest limiting factor would be mechanical at low frequencies, in which case a second woofer would help, but since very little content below 60hz would be sent to the speaker, this should be a non issue, correct? I generally watch movies at -10dB from Reference, so that absolute maximum a single speaker would be required to play is 95dB, which would only require about 20w. If we add 3dB of headroom for impedance dips, that’s still only 50w at the mlp.

Is there any benefit to upgrading to comparable towers when a sub is used?






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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
It depends. Not all towers are created equal. Real towers with
Larger multiple drivers imo are always better than a bookshelf. And not just for extension. Bigger speakers will almost always play lower than smaller ones but not all of the impact and dynamics come from the lower regions. So to me, even if the bookshelf version of a speaker can play as loud, I don’t think it will do it in the same way as a larger speaker. Exciting airwaves with larger/multiple drivers is always easier than doing it with little ones, therefore they provide a more effortless dynamic presentation overall. For example. My mains are rated to 35hz, 92db with 12” woofers. Surrounds are 45hz 88db with 8” woofers. Both are 3 ways. Level/xo matched and played below distortion level, the bigger towers are still just more dynamic, and sound more realistic.
In the case of your rp150’s vs the rp280, I’ll admit to little experience with them but my gut says you will notice a lot. Especially white the volume levels you listen at. I can’t do the surface area math off hand, but dual 8”s over a single 5.25 is simple.
To the last question in your post, yes there is, but I don’t think the 150, and 280 are comparable at all.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
The RP-150ms in my setup have a sensitivity of 93dB. I know Klipsch rates their sensitivity specs based on room gain, but either way, it seems accurate enough, since I certainly won’t be using them outdoors :). When compared side by side to a pair of Polk OWM3s, which are spec’d at 89 dB, the polks measure exactly 3dB quieter, and I can say they are certainly much louder than any other speaker I’ve compared them to at the same volume. My brother bought a receiver off me I was originally using before hand, paired them with a set of towers rated at 88dB, and upon calibrating his system for him, I changed the trim settings from -3dB to +4dB to calibrate to Reference level, despite his seating being 2’ closer to the fronts than mine.

A pair of RP 250f towers uses the same tweeter mounted to the same horn, but includes a second 5.25” woofer, and a bigger cabinet with an f3 of 35hz vs 47hz. They’re rated at 96dB vs 93dB, I assume the limiting factor in sensitivity is the woofers, since horn loaded tweeters often have sensitivities in excess of 100dB. My front three speakers are all crossed over at 60hz, port tuning and minimal excursion point is 63hz.

I would assume that the biggest limiting factor would be mechanical at low frequencies, in which case a second woofer would help, but since very little content below 60hz would be sent to the speaker, this should be a non issue, correct? I generally watch movies at -10dB from Reference, so that absolute maximum a single speaker would be required to play is 95dB, which would only require about 20w. If we add 3dB of headroom for impedance dips, that’s still only 50w at the mlp.

Is there any benefit to upgrading to comparable towers when a sub is used?






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Let me tell you a little story. I have had towers for many years as my mains. Never thought about anything other than having towers. One day I had this crazy idea because I was tired of having these huge speakers that were heavy to move around and intruding so I had this crazy idea to go with an all bookshelf system. So I traded in my Def Tech towers for an all Def Tech studio monitor system. SM 65 LCR and SM 55 surrounds and I could not be happier with this decision. I have a PB-1000 for a sub and I'm telling you it's the best sounding system I've had. The same exact speaker for LCR is dam near audio or HT nirvana. It's simply amazing and all I heard about all these years. I can't imagine a reason to ever go back.

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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
As is almost always the case, "it depends".

However, I can certainly make that argument that typically, assuming a limited budget, bookshelves are the way to go. Here are my experiences/thoughts on this:

Tower speakers involve larger panels that are prone to resonance. Simply put, a 6" cube made of 3/4" mdf will pass the knock test quite easily, but a 2 foot cube made of 3/4" mdf will not. The solution is to compensate with bracing to the larger cabinet, but this adds cost to construction as will as shipping and handling (increased weight).
Understand that this resonance doesn't necessarily sound bad. My favorite example is comparing Hotel California where the resonance I heard made for some very full and rich bass that was lovely vs. about anything by Steely Dan where being tight and precise is king! I think, like me, the vast majority of people would prefer the resonant cabinets for Hotel California and the non-resonant cabinet for Steely Dan, assuming the other attributes of the speakers were "equal" (and the resonances were reasonably tame).
I expect the best ($$$) offerings of Revel, Focal, B&W, etc. to have the required bracing to eliminate resonances to be on par with the same series bookshelves, but look how much you pay for it! As a general rule of thumb, I expect there to be audible resonance from any tower with a street-price under $1000 each.
The premium Klipsch speakers I know of do not offer a Bookshelf equivalent!
Totem makes a thing of using natural resonance as part of their sound. I found them to be very nice for something like an intimate trio, but felt they fell apart when subjected to more complex music with lots of syncopation (especially as the volume went up).

With speakers like the Klipsch you mention, where the drivers are identical for the towers but an extra woofer, I would expect very similar sound character until you got into lower frequencies. If you crossed them at 80Hz instead of 60, I would feel pretty comfortable believing you would not hear much difference aside from resonance. However, at 60Hz, I could see the inherent roll-off of the single 5.25" driver interfering with the rate of the AVR's roll-off. SVS recommends using an AVR to cross these speakers to sub at 80Hz. If you do not have an AVR and have to cross to the natural roll-off of the speaker, they recommend setting the sub XO to 60Hz. So if you were to XO at 60Hz using an AVR, you would essentially have a compound roll-off of the 150M's - both the AVR and the speaker together cause a steeper roll-off than you would want.
It is unfortunate that your 150 and 250 are not from the exact same series, but I would suggest you do an A-B comparison of these two speakers in whichever room you are considering upgrading to towers. Use the receiver to roll off both speakers at 80Hz and just see what difference you get. I assume you have two receivers, so I would suggest you use both so you can level match and instantly switch between the two pairs of speakers. A source such as a DVD/BD player usually has two outputs that are both active (my Oppo has two HDMI's that are active, but even my CD player has a toslink and RCA outs that are both active. Last, IME, since you are comparing pretty equivalent speakers, once you reach some conclusions and repeatable observations, you need to swap the speaker locations, as that is a very likely to contribute to what you hear.

With speakers that involve different drivers to increase the bass performance, you are much more likely to realize a different sound. Let me use the SVS Ultra Towers vs Bookshelves as an example. The towers take the same tweeter and midrange from the bookshelf and add a second 6.5" mid-woofer and two 8" woofers to get f3 of 28Hz. A key point is the mid to woofer OX is 160Hz in the towers while the bookshelf has an F3 at 43Hz...so the single driver in the bookshelf is expected to play down to 43Hz, while SVS felt it was better to cross to the 8"woofers at 160Hz! Now, I can tell you from personal experience that the Ultra Bookshelves do not have noticeably sloppy bass, but were I to A-B the towers against the bookshelves (with an 80Hz XO so the differences in lowest bass are avoided), I would expect there to be some readily audible differences in the frequencies below 160Hz.
So now, I think we can assume that the towers will sound a little different and presumably better than the bookshelves (at least in this low frequency range), and it becomes a question of whether the difference in price ($1000/pr vs $2000/pr) is justified.
If your budget is $2000, I think it is a no-brainer...Bookshelves plus $1000 of subwooferage will outperform towers. Furthermore, we might look for a sub known to offer higher performance at higher frequencies with the option of XO at 100 or 120Hz to relieve the 6.5" mid-woofs of the most demanding lower frequencies. However, if you have the money to get the Towers without it coming out of your subwoofer budget, I do believe the Towers will get you some audible improvement.
If I can use @Pogre as an example (which is poignant because of the irony), he bought the Ultra Towers and reveled in the solid bass (as you might expect from SVS) that they provided. However, after he went through the process of measuring and miniDSP'ing his system, there was no way around it...he (perversely) needed to cross these towers to the subs at 100Hz for the best sound quality. Much of that has to do with the room and the restrictions on where you can position tweeters to get proper sound from your mains, so someone else might have a different outcome. Obviously, he spent a lot of money for performance into the 20Hz territory that he will likely never use! With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, and if we just look at the stereo system, he ideally may have done better buying a pair of Philharmonitor Audio BMR speakers* for $1350 instead of the towers (but they would not have matched the rest of his system so well as staying with the Ultras all around and I doubt he has any serious regrets).

*Technically, the BMR is a bookshelf, but at 20" tall is is really something of a hybrid to provide deeper bass than a normal bookshelf would!

In any case, I generally consider Bookshelves with subs a better deal.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Since when does much of what we do make sense or even need to? :)
 
Dale Doback

Dale Doback

Junior Audioholic
Also, if adding quality stands comes close to price of towers, why not towers? Anyway, not too long ago, I tried what most recommend, and, set my towers to small @ 80hz X-Over. Ok, they were right, sounds great. I'm a stubborn old schooler. :oops:
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Towers can have significantly more powerful midrange, and that can make a difference if you like to listen loud. Towers can have a dynamic range advantage. However, good bookshelf speaker can stay clean at relatively loud frequencies, probably more than enough for most people, unless the speakers are in a large room.
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
The RP-150ms in my setup have a sensitivity of 93dB. I know Klipsch rates their sensitivity specs based on room gain, but either way, it seems accurate enough, since I certainly won’t be using them outdoors :). When compared side by side to a pair of Polk OWM3s, which are spec’d at 89 dB, the polks measure exactly 3dB quieter, and I can say they are certainly much louder than any other speaker I’ve compared them to at the same volume. My brother bought a receiver off me I was originally using before hand, paired them with a set of towers rated at 88dB, and upon calibrating his system for him, I changed the trim settings from -3dB to +4dB to calibrate to Reference level, despite his seating being 2’ closer to the fronts than mine.

A pair of RP 250f towers uses the same tweeter mounted to the same horn, but includes a second 5.25” woofer, and a bigger cabinet with an f3 of 35hz vs 47hz. They’re rated at 96dB vs 93dB, I assume the limiting factor in sensitivity is the woofers, since horn loaded tweeters often have sensitivities in excess of 100dB. My front three speakers are all crossed over at 60hz, port tuning and minimal excursion point is 63hz.

I would assume that the biggest limiting factor would be mechanical at low frequencies, in which case a second woofer would help, but since very little content below 60hz would be sent to the speaker, this should be a non issue, correct? I generally watch movies at -10dB from Reference, so that absolute maximum a single speaker would be required to play is 95dB, which would only require about 20w. If we add 3dB of headroom for impedance dips, that’s still only 50w at the mlp.

Is there any benefit to upgrading to comparable towers when a sub is used?






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Those 150’s are not going to reproduce mids like the addition of an extra driver like that in the 250. Why not use both? Use the 150 as a side channel in a 7.1 setup if you can. No way I’d use them as mains even with a sub. 2 cents.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
a large number of todays inexpensive towers are incapable of coming close to doing the bottom octave(s) justice, even in an anechoic chamber. So for that reason alone a capable sub (or two) makes perfect sense.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
a large number of todays inexpensive towers are incapable of coming close to doing the bottom octave(s) justice, even in an anechoic chamber. So for that reason alone a capable sub (or two) makes perfect sense.
I agree. Subs always make sense. IMO so do towers(budget notwithstanding), but definitely not bookshelf’s with a built in base.(like the towers I think you’re referring to)
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Also, if adding quality stands comes close to price of towers, why not towers? Anyway, not too long ago, I tried what most recommend, and, set my towers to small @ 80hz X-Over. Ok, they were right, sounds great. I'm a stubborn old schooler. :oops:
I’ve always found 60hz to work better in nearly all setup situations I’ve had. Just seems to blend better with the mains, especially with music.


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H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I’ve always found 60hz to work better in nearly all setup situations I’ve had. Just seems to blend better with the mains, especially with music.


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My HT is set to 60Hz and love it. Sounds awesome and after blend better.

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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
My HT is set to 60Hz and love it. Sounds awesome and after blend better.

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I think most subs, especially rather large subs, also perform better below 80hz anyways, after all, the “sub bass” octaves are 60hz and below. I’ve yet to see a large driver subwoofer perform well above 100hz. I’ve always wanted to try a midbass module crossed over at 60hz & 120hz.

I think most 5.25” speakers can easily handle 60hz content, and do it better than a sub, at least that has been my experience. A good deal of ported bookshelf speakers have a box tuning between 50-70hz, in my case, mine are tuned to somewhere around 60hz. I see more cone movement at 80hz at the same volume than I do at 60hz, so crossing at 80hz offers no benefit in headroom, mechanically or electrically, since many ported speakers have an impedance of 20+ ohms at the port frequency, I’d be using less power to produce a 60hz wave with my receiver and speakers than I would my sub.

Many rooms also have a decent amount of room gain beginning in this range. My room actually gives me an extra 10-20hz of extension with my bookshelf speakers. The small RB 10s I have mounted to my ceiling are spec’d at 90hz -3dB, since I have an 8’ ceiling, and the speakers are ~7” from the ceiling, and 23” from the side wall/ceiling junction, I get a 6dB boost (1/2wavelength of 70hz is ~8’) at 70hz, which is enough to shift the in room response to 70hz -3dB. The R-15m I have for surrounds are spec’d at 63hz, but I get a -3dB response of 50hz in room (1/2 wavelength of 47hz is 12’).

One of my friends bought a pair of KB-15s (same design as the R-15m, but with a lousier woofer) from me spec’d at 63hz, and put them in an 18x15’ room with a concrete floor, and a brick exterior behind the drywall. He was originally going to purchase a sub from me as well, but after setting up the speakers, we noticed that the bass response seems more than adequate for music and even movies/games. We measured his room response and were shocked to find a solid -3dB response of 38hz. That’s a whole 25hz of room gain, and nearly an entire octave of extension. If I ever had the chance to build my own theater room, I’d likely build a 30x15x9 room, which would impart an almost perfect low frequency “shelf”, with center frequencies of 60hz, 38hz, and 20hz. Corner loading a sub in a room such as this would give a nearly flat boost to the low end without any one note boominess. The room I’m in now is almost ideal, an ideal room would be 18.64x12.8x8. 20x11.5x8 isn’t terribly far off.




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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
It depends. Not all towers are created equal. Real towers with
Larger multiple drivers imo are always better than a bookshelf. And not just for extension. Bigger speakers will almost always play lower than smaller ones but not all of the impact and dynamics come from the lower regions. So to me, even if the bookshelf version of a speaker can play as loud, I don’t think it will do it in the same way as a larger speaker. Exciting airwaves with larger/multiple drivers is always easier than doing it with little ones, therefore they provide a more effortless dynamic presentation overall. For example. My mains are rated to 35hz, 92db with 12” woofers. Surrounds are 45hz 88db with 8” woofers. Both are 3 ways. Level/xo matched and played below distortion level, the bigger towers are still just more dynamic, and sound more realistic.
In the case of your rp150’s vs the rp280, I’ll admit to little experience with them but my gut says you will notice a lot. Especially white the volume levels you listen at. I can’t do the surface area math off hand, but dual 8”s over a single 5.25 is simple.
To the last question in your post, yes there is, but I don’t think the 150, and 280 are comparable at all.
You mean I can achieve better dynamics than I have now? In my experience, most direct radiating bookshelf speakers have lousy dynamic range, and even smaller floor standers. I can say confidently that the RP-150m easily outperforms a good deal of less capable towers I’ve heard when it comes to dynamics (ie typical dual 5.25” woofer towers). That’s what sold me on them when listening to different speakers at BB magnolia. I never did test the bigger Klipsch, as it was out of budget at the time.

About 1/3rd of the midrange is also handled by the horn as well, which is crossed over at 1500hz. One interesting observation I made recently, is the dynamics of the 250c, which uses 2 5.25” woofers vs a single one, is better at very high spl. Goofing around with rew and some measurements, I was able to get an extra 6dB out of it before distortion really kicked in compared to the mains. I do know that watching movies at -10dB, I hear no straining during the loudest parts. The only speakers that complains about that volume is my subwoofer on some movies. 10 cloverfield lane had the VC slamming the back plate during the scene with the overhead rumbling at -10dB. That particular track had a very high crest factor. Recently watched Alien Covenant at -10dB, which sounded simply amazing, with great dynamics.

What would you consider a big enough room to warrant more dynamic range? My room is 20x11.5, and I sit 11’ away from the l/r speakers. My surrounds are 5’2” away and the heights are 6’3” away. I have my surrounds calibrated 3dB lower than the l/r and the heights are calibrated at the same level as the l/r. Interestingly enough, my center channel is about 4dB louder that the l/r.

Would something like the RB 81 (or the premiere equivalent once Klipsch gets to it) with an 8” woofer and bigger horn offer similar benefits in dynamics?


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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
There is an alternative. Bookshelves daddy.

I actually would love to have these, how long and how difficult would you say it is to build these (excluding finishing time)? I haven’t got a lot of free time lately. Do the flat packs have grooves for an easy fit? How does the sound compare to Klipsch? I do want accuracy as well.


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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Other question that I’ve wondered, how would pro sound reinforcement do in home theater? Most of them provide FR graphs and they look pretty accurate up to about 17khz, and many of them are constant directivity designs as well.


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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Other question that I’ve wondered, how would pro sound reinforcement do in home theater? Most of them provide FR graphs and they look pretty accurate up to about 17khz, and many of them are constant directivity designs as well.


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Some of them would work very well. I have heard some JBL and QSC speakers that I could easily live with. Even the Behringer B215XL is not bad. The DIYSG SEOS designs are also really good, I have heard an assortment of them.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Some of them would work very well. I have heard some JBL and QSC speakers that I could easily live with. Even the Behringer B215XL is not bad. The DIYSG SEOS designs are also really good, I have heard an assortment of them.
Could you recommend a pa speaker that can make it to 60hz -3dB? That’s the biggest issue I’ve found with them so far, especially the b215xl, which doesn’t even reach below 80hz.


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