Why not 4th order crossovers?

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I don't know why he wouldn't just use a pink noise to test compression like everyone else. Or, better yet, use something that has a tilt to higher frequencies. Low frequencies aren't good for inducing thermal compression because the large movements of the coil actually help it cool off. Higher frequencies see a lot of current dumped into the driver but not much relative motion to cool it off. Were I to conduct the tests, I would have measured the effect on frequency response by using pseudo random noise. Testing resistance is interesting, but I would be more interested in the end result on the response.
That would be a good follow up study. But your case would be stronger if you:
  1. Test both pink noise and the Led Zep music passage as done before.
  2. Test response as well as show that it actually is or isn't accompanied by increased voice coil resistance.
  3. Because the article could not demonstrate any significant thermal compression, you could test just how long it takes to induce compression, if any occurs.
Why spend good time posting here when you could be solving serious problems* in modern acoustics? Get busy. Inquiring minds await.

* OK, "serious problems" is exaggerating just a bit :D.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
That would be a good follow up study. But your case would be stronger if you:
  1. Test both pink noise and the Led Zep music passage as done before.
  2. Test response as well as show that it actually is or isn't accompanied by increased voice coil resistance.
  3. Because the article could not demonstrate any significant thermal compression, you could test just how long it takes to induce compression, if any occurs.
Why spend good time posting here when you could be solving serious problems* in modern acoustics? Get busy. Inquiring minds await.

* OK, "serious problems" is exaggerating just a bit :D.
I would use white noise, not pink noise. There is no point in using Led Zeppelin. White noise would suffice. Using music wouldn't prove much.

I will get busy solving these problems once you give me the grant to accomplish this project. However, that grant money would be better reserved for other problems that aren't so well understood. This issue has been studied and isn't really a mystery anymore.

Agreed it is not a serious problem, at least in home audio. At least if you aren't a headbanger trying to use satellite speakers to rock out with.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I would use white noise, not pink noise. There is no point in using Led Zeppelin. White noise would suffice. Using music wouldn't prove much.
There is a point to using the same Led Zep passage as tried before, as well as testing with white noise. You might be able to show that thermal compression can be induced, but that the previous effort was insufficient to make that happen.

You would be able to conclude that under the conditions you used in the test you actually did find evidence of thermal compression. But the Led Zep test was not enough to make it happen.

That would be better than concluding "Thermal compression is not an issue because I tried (with Led Zep) and couldn't see any evidence of thermal compression". That would be useful to know.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I’ve already had an extra cup of coffee this morning, so I’m ready to walk through this.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/hot-stuff-loudspeaker-voice-coil-temperatures-page-2. (The first page gives some back ground, but you can skip the first page, and go directly to page 2 for the details of the test.)

Everyone agrees that a speaker voice coil heats up when used. The louder the playback, the more it heats up. It is also known that a speaker voice coil, when hot enough, conducts electricity less well than if cool. This is said to result in a loss of output, especially in tweeters, and is called thermal compression or power compression. Apparently this is a known problem in auditorium PA loud speakers. Many people also believe that thermal compression occurs in home audio speakers.

The question is, do home audio speakers suffer the same loss of output to voice coil heating? Does the resistance of woofer or tweeter voice coils increase with use?

Keith Howard, the author of the Stereophile article, measured the voice coil resistance in a B&W CDM1NT speaker that he owns. He used them as an example of compact 2-way speakers of lower than average sensitivity, in which you might expect to find thermal compression problems. He also had physically removed the speaker’s crossover board from the cabinet, allowing him to measure thermal behavior downstream of the crossover.



He had to build some test equipment so he could directly measure the voice coil temperature (did he mean resistance?) of both the mid-woofer and the tweeter.

As program material, he wanted a music passage that was likely to heat the speaker’s voice coils. He quoted a good authority (Bob Stuart of Meridian) that Metallica tracks make for good power-testing material, as they have negligible dynamic range and quite a wide frequency spectrum. As he didn’t have any Metallica, instead he chose a passage from the song Heartbreaker from Led Zeppelin II. He claimed, the instrumental section in the latter half of that song was just what he was looking for, with a paucity of dynamic range, and quite a wide acoustic spectrum (fig.2). Because this passage lasts about 47 seconds, he stitched seven repeats (329 seconds) end to end in a WAV file to create a single track of over five minutes long.

This graph (figure 2) shows two traces of dB full scale (dBFS) vs frequency of peak (red) and average (blue) audio spectra of the 47 second passage. The author claims the wide frequency range and close spacing of the red and blue traces confirm the low dynamic range of the passage. I’m glad he at least tried to document the dynamic range. Without anything to compare to this, we have to take his word. If anyone cares enough, they can do a similar measurement with another musical passage.



Playback was done with a Townshend TA565 universal disc player and a Rotel RA-1062 integrated amplifier rated at 60 Wpc continuous into 8 ohms. The volume control was set to about 2 o'clock, at which the sound-pressure level at 1 meter driving the CDM1NT's mid woofer driver read between 100 and 104 dB. The author described the mid-woofer’s cone as “undergoing sufficiently large excursions to threaten the end-stops had the volume been much higher”. He also measured the tweeter at the same volume setting.

If the author directly measured voice coil temperature, he didn’t show those results. Instead, all his results show voice coil resistance in ohms over a time of 500 seconds, where the seven back-to-back repeats of the music took place during the first 329 seconds.

The results (figures 3 and 4) were something of a surprise. Despite what he thought was a high playback level, the increases in voice coil resistance were even less than he expected in the mid-woofer and barely detectable in the tweeter.

Figure 3 – mid-woofer
The trace began at 3.9 ohms before the music passage began, rising to about 4.2 ohms while playing the test program, and rapidly returned to 3.9 ohms afterward.



Figure 4 – tweeter
Same test as in figure 3, but with the tweeter. Note that the vertical scale is different than in figure 3. It shows the range of 2.5 to 3 ohms, over the same vertical distance as the 3.5 to 5 ohms in figure 3. It is ‘zoomed in’ or magnified. Here the change in resistance during the test program was barely distinguishable, amounting to about 0.01 ohm.



Conclusion: Under these test conditions, thermal compression is barely detectable, and is not considered a problem.
Yes but that was done with a little 60 watt per channel integrated amp.


Not this.



I'm glad you enjoyed the Baltimore symphony concert, in fact were blown away by the wallop a good symphony orchestra can deliver. The Baltimore symphony are really on a roll right now. I have heard some of their broadcasts.

It is a real challenge to get that impact in the home.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I'm glad you enjoyed the Baltimore symphony concert, in fact were blown away by the wallop a good symphony orchestra can deliver. The Baltimore symphony are really on a roll right now. I have heard some of their broadcasts.

It is a real challenge to get that impact in the home.
I just got back from a really interesting performance of a local volunteer orchestra in a medium-sized church. The orchestra was quite good playing Berlioz. Perhaps not comparable to the BSO in talent and precision, but very enjoyable nonetheless. The venue was about 100 feet wide or so, maybe a bit wider, with a moderate cathedral roof I'd estimate at 40-50 feet in height. We sat about 50 feet back from the orchestra, which had about 60 players. The sound was awesome, louder and more visceral than I'd heard in larger venues in years. The peaks were so visceral I actually fired up the sound level app on my iPhone (I use Decibel X Pro). I caught several peaks in the 104db range. The tympani were felt as much as heard. It was also nice to hear the subtlety you often miss in large venues, like how it really sounds when the violin section plucks strings. I know we throw around sound levels of 100db around here like it's no big deal, but I suspect most home systems wouldn't sound all that good trying to recreate the experience.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
There is a point to using the same Led Zep passage as tried before, as well as testing with white noise. You might be able to show that thermal compression can be induced, but that the previous effort was insufficient to make that happen.

You would be able to conclude that under the conditions you used in the test you actually did find evidence of thermal compression. But the Led Zep test was not enough to make it happen.

That would be better than concluding "Thermal compression is not an issue because I tried (with Led Zep) and couldn't see any evidence of thermal compression". That would be useful to know.
These studies might be interesting, but they only apply to one tweeter and crossover design. I don't think they'd tell us much about the issue overall.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yes but that was done with a little 60 watt per channel integrated amp.
The author did say he ran the test while that speaker produced 100-104 dB (measured at 1 m by SPL meter) powered by that 60 Watt amp.

But your comment gets to the problem I had with that article. It's hard to make any useful conclusions about thermal compression in home audio speakers when you cannot show that it actually was induced during the test. This will not convince people who are inclined to believe thermal compression can be a real problem. Could compression be induced with a different signal, played over a longer time, or with greater amplification? The author never looked that far.
I'm glad you enjoyed the Baltimore symphony concert, in fact were blown away by the wallop a good symphony orchestra can deliver. The Baltimore symphony are really on a roll right now. I have heard some of their broadcasts.
Yes, the BSO (not that other BSO from Boston) is on a roll. The director, Marin Alsop has been there for nearly 10 years and is apparently successful at the job. Is she the first woman to direct a major US symphony orchestra? She is among a small group of conductors who trained under Lenard Bernstein, who himself trained under Aaron Copland. So she has a great pedigree.
It is a real challenge to get that impact in the home.
And that was unamplified music in a large concert hall that seats about 1800 or 1900 people.

My seats are in the Orchestra level, row DD near the center, 20 rows back from the orchestra.

https://d1gygfmjn8fvt3.cloudfront.net/www/pdf/Orchestra.pdf

https://www.strathmore.org/private-events-rentals/virtual-tour
 
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