Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I was under the impression that the old analog parametric equalizers could be a disaster if you did not use them sparingly, but thought that adjustments in the digital domain were free of such artifacts as the phasing issue you mention, but I'm really talking above my knowledge level to make such a statement as fact.
I think you could be right on that. I was trying to get my one brain cell to conjure up that info. Turns out poges is staying under 200hz. A point that I shared earlier was he should also use caution there too.
Jason, if you do not hear much conclusive here, you might see if you can get a hold of Ed Mullen at SVS, I think he has a pretty good understanding of the issues at play.
Ultimately, it may be that there is no hard rule of thumb and it depends on your particular room/setup which would work best. Who knows? Not me!
i agree. He will know exactly what to do. And he’s pretty friendly too.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I think you could be right on that. I was trying to get my one brain cell to conjure up that info. Turns out poges is staying under 200hz. A point that I shared earlier was he should also use caution there too.

i agree. He will know exactly what to do. And he’s pretty friendly too.
I'm with you both. I don't want to be over driving the sub sections of my towers and yes Bill, that's my plan. Stay at 200 and down, piping one of the lfe channels into the sub sections of my towers.
Jason, if you do not hear much conclusive here, you might see if you can get a hold of Ed Mullen at SVS, I think he has a pretty good understanding of the issues at play.
Ultimately, it may be that there is no hard rule of thumb and it depends on your particular room/setup which would work best. Who knows? Not me!
I was going to hit their chat earlier, but it's sunday and nobody's there. I'll hit 'em up tomorrow morning.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I don't know if I'm struggling with the terminology or if I'm just straight up having comprehension issues. Global eq vs individual eq, I think I understand. By bi amping I'm treating the sub sections of my towers as additional subwoofers, so those will be summed as one via rca splitter and connected to one of my sub channels? Would I eq those as 1, the eq the subwoofers as one, then do it globally? When you say a mono, that means a test tone in rew using lfe channels only?
You will need to treat the lower part of the tower as if it were a stand alone sub. So, you'll need to adjust them individually for level and distance. After this, you'll run REW as if you only had one sub.

I don't see the value in this exercise since you'll be doing the equivalent of blending a 10" and 12" sub. As always, the less capable device will dictate the overall dynamic range. In this case, the lower section of the towers.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I'm with you both. I don't want to be over driving the sub sections of my towers and yes Bill, that's my plan. Stay at 200 and down, piping one of the lfe channels into the sub sections of my towers.
i believe that overdriving them is exactly what will happen. They’re not really “sub” sections per se, and not meant to operate as such. Of course you know I’m just looking out for you, and also, if I’m missing something, I hope someone will shed some light. @agarwalro makes a good point too about dynamic capabilities.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
You will need to treat the lower part of the tower as if it were a stand alone sub. So, you'll need to adjust them individually for level and distance. After this, you'll run REW as if you only had one sub.

I don't see the value in this exercise since you'll be doing the equivalent of blending a 10" and 12" sub. As always, the less capable device will dictate the overall dynamic range. In this case, the lower section of the towers.
The towers have two 8" woofers for the sub section and the Hsu's are 15" subs. Yes, I've taken that under consideration as well. I haven't done or changed anything yet. I'm in the read, ask questions and research stage right now. I'm not changing anything until I have a firm grasp of what to do (if anything at all). What I have right now is really very good. I just love experimenting and playing with my toys. :D
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Just finished a chat with SVS on their site. Running lfe to the bass sections of my towers is not a good idea...
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
J, just curious how detailed they got with you. If you wanna share that is...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
J, just curious how detailed they got with you. If you wanna share that is...
One reply was, "Use lfe for the subs (Hsu's). That's what they're made for"

I asked if I would be risking damage to the drivers and he said "yes".
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
One reply was, "Use lfe for the subs. That's what they're made for"

I asked if I would be risking damage to the drivers and he said "yes".
Wow. Kinda short, huh?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
It was. Pretty brief. Not entirely satisfying but the message is "you'll f%@# your speakers up if you try that".
Lo. Message received!!! I sure understand where you were going with that, but I’m glad you didn’t. My jbl towers have a big brother. The S412 studioII. It has a powered bass section and I had the same idea as you and thought about an active XO and amps for my 312’s. So glad I gave up on that. Btw, saw you aced your test. Good job!!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Lo. Message received!!! I sure understand where you were going with that, but I’m glad you didn’t. My jbl towers have a big brother. The S412 studioII. It has a powered bass section and I had the same idea as you and thought about an active XO and amps for my 312’s. So glad I gave up on that. Btw, saw you aced your test. Good job!!
I kept trying to wrap my head around it and would get a little flash of "oh, I can do this!", followed almost immediately by "this is gonna be very complicated and easy to make a mess of". If the sub sections in my towers were as capable as the Hsu's... maybe? I dunno. Feels too much like I'll be fighting the passive crossovers in the towers and end up over driving the woofers.

Still, @gene suggested a bi amp configuration and eq'ing the sub sections of my towers somehow... passive bi amp like normal, but eq the bottom half of the towers with my subs? A high pass filter on the towers, like a mbm? Am I the only one confused? :p
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I kept trying to wrap my head around it and would get a little flash of "oh, I can do this!", followed almost immediately by "this is gonna be very complicated and easy to make a mess of". If the sub sections in my towers were as capable as the Hsu's... maybe? I dunno. Feels too much like I'll be fighting the passive crossovers in the towers and end up over driving the woofers.

Still, @gene suggested a bi amp configuration and eq'ing the sub sections of my towers somehow... passive bi amp like normal, but eq the bottom half of the towers with my subs? A high pass filter on the towers? Am I the only one confused? :p
Lol. Nope. Not the only one.
I think what your suggesting isn’t crazy, but the low end range of your speakers is more an MBM(mid bass module). If you could take a run at that, you could have some success, but sending an lfe signal is a recipe for disaster since they aren’t made to operate in that range. And it’s not like that monolith is gonna run outta gas!!! I think smart money is to leave it be and let er rip!!!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Lol. Nope. Not the only one.
I think what your suggesting isn’t crazy, but the low end range of your speakers is more an MBM(mid bass module). If you could take a run at that, you could have some success, but sending an lfe signal is a recipe for disaster since they aren’t made to operate in that range. And it’s not like that monolith is gonna run outta gas!!! I think smart money is to leave it be and let er rip!!!
Agree. I'm not messing with anything right now. I'm still sorting it all in my head. Hopefully gene will pop in and dumb it down for us, lol.

I'm not looking for a huge sweet spot. I'm the only one in the house who even appreciates it. Everyone else thinks I'm nuts.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I kept trying to wrap my head around it and would get a little flash of "oh, I can do this!", followed almost immediately by "this is gonna be very complicated and easy to make a mess of". If the sub sections in my towers were as capable as the Hsu's... maybe? I dunno. Feels too much like I'll be fighting the passive crossovers in the towers and end up over driving the woofers.

Still, @gene suggested a bi amp configuration and eq'ing the sub sections of my towers somehow... passive bi amp like normal, but eq the bottom half of the towers with my subs? A high pass filter on the towers, like a mbm? Am I the only one confused? :p
The reason Gene (and I FWIW) suggested this was because some speakers made use drivers that are more than capable of LFE content. Yours according to SVS are not. Simple as that.

Sure they were brief in their explanation, but they know what they're talking about so I'd listen to them and not worry about it.

I just thought it could be a cool way to use your speakers lower end capability and incorporate it into the sub eq/filters. It could work if you used a HPF on your mains, but I'm starting to think we're getting into lots of tinkering with little to no benefit.

Stop thinking and start listening to music. You're gonna have to start working again remember? :(
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
The reason Gene (and I FWIW) suggested this was because some speakers made use drivers that are more than capable of LFE content. Yours according to SVS are not. Simple as that.

Sure they were brief in their explanation, but they know what they're talking about so I'd listen to them and not worry about it.

I just thought it could be a cool way to use your speakers lower end capability and incorporate it into the sub eq/filters. It could work if you used a HPF on your mains, but I'm starting to think we're getting into lots of tinkering with little to no benefit.

Stop thinking and start listening to music. You're gonna have to start working again remember? :(
I hear ya. I have a national exam I need to pass on Thursday too. The class exam was easy. They made sure to cover the questions on their test. It's set up the same way as the nationals, but the test is different every time. I still have some studying to do.

I'm kicked back, got the music turned up and I'm relaxing and enjoying my system. No big hurry to possibly create something that sounds like utter crap, lol (though I did cut and terminate another set of cables in anticipation for my mains so I have it bi amped currently. Can't say as i notice any major improvement, just playin')

That being said, there's a way to do this. I've abandoned using lfe to the towers, but not the idea as a whole. It might be biting off more than I can chew tho, so I'm gonna think and read some more. Some discussion would be more than welcome.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I hear ya. I have a national exam I need to pass on Thursday too. The class exam was easy. They made sure to cover the questions on their test. It's set up the same way as the nationals, but the test is different every time. I still have some studying to do.

I'm kicked back, got the music turned up and I'm relaxing and enjoying my system. No big hurry to possibly create something that sounds like utter crap, lol (though I did cut and terminate another set of cables in anticipation for my mains so I have it bi amped currently. Can't say as i notice any major improvement, just playin')

That being said, there's a way to do this. I've abandoned using lfe to the towers, but not the idea as a whole. It might be biting off more than I can chew tho, so I'm gonna think and read some more. Some discussion would be more than welcome.
I can't see it as worth the time to deal with the woofers in your speakers as subs....if you didn't have the Hsu subs maybe....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I can't see it as worth the time to deal with the woofers in your speakers as subs....if you didn't have the Hsu subs maybe....
Agree, I think if sound quality is the only goal, it makes sense to let the subwoofers do the bass. Having both doing the same job will most likely (though not always) degrade the sound even with the best EQ system, it's just physics, and should be obvious to anyone who has tried integrating the mains and subs using various EQ and REW etc.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Definition of LFE:
The low-frequency effects (LFE) channel is the name of an audio track specifically intended for deep, low-pitched sounds ranging from 3-120 Hz. This track is normally sent to a speaker that is specially designed for low-pitched sounds called the subwoofer.
If you aggressively high pass filtered the signal to your mains at 40Hz or so, that might work, but HT LFE content can be stupid loud and low from a music standpoint. For example, the powerful strikes of the tympani of Also Sprach Zarathustra (Theme to 2001: A Space Odyssey) is no lower than 60Hz. I'm betting your towers would be phenomenal with these drums at a spirited volume!
But if you feed them the LFE from "Lord of the Rings" at an engaging volume level, you will push them beyond their limits.

This begs the question of whether Ed's main concern was sending LFE content to the Ultras or if it was isolating the woofer section and applying miniDSP to it.

So, I think it'd be reasonable to use them full range and manage the bass using the miniDSP (but without adding the LFE signal). I would be slow to do much with miniDSP in the higher frequencies and let Audyssey manage that, but in the lower frequencies, it makes sense that your towers are having the normal issues of low frequency room effects. Whether you isolate the woofer section or simply apply miniDSP to the lower frequencies doesn't seem like it'd matter much, but I like the idea of knowing you cannot impact the higher frequencies after you separate them.

From what I've read, the low end of those towers is very nice and it seems a crime to cross them at 100HZ (IIRC). It also makes sense that room modes beyond what Audyssey can easily handle may be the reason that your curves look best when the towers are crossed so high.

I would be tempted to start fresh, tuning your system without the subs and with the woofer sections on the miniDSP, just to see how good you can get the towers to sound (with music) and what you learn from it!

Actually, I just found an old (2012) article that does a great job of discussing much of what you are doing/considering!
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1
From part two:
Any tower speaker ... with speaker-cable binding posts that allow the bass section to be separately amplified, can be optimized for smooth bass response in your listening chair even if the speakers are placed for the best midrange/treble performance. All you have to do is connect a low-frequency equalizer such as the Velodyne SMS-1 or the MiniDSP, then dial in the EQ for flat bass response.
Edit: I was piddling around and had this post sitting on a back burner for several hours. I am not posting this as a direct contradiction of PENG's (or LovinHD's) posts (which I did not read until after I posted this). I am more throwing out food for thought ... I don't know enough about this to argue what you should do!
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
This begs the question of whether Ed's main concern was sending LFE content to the Ultras or if it was isolating the woofer section and applying miniDSP to it.
This! That tower does not have the same protection circuitry built in to it as a dedicated subwoofer would. So when users start boosting below the resonant frequency of the driver in order to achieve an idealized measurement, there is no way to protect the driver from damage.

@Pogre could provide a basic map of the dimensions of his space like NINAudio did and someone wanting to offer help might aid in predicting those room modes in order to make better use of those very capable subs in order to drive the standing waves....
 
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