Looking for a sealed sub under $1500 to pair with KEF LS50

[Andrew Huynh]

My current system:
+speakers: KEF LS50
+subwoofer: svs sb 1000
+receiver: Denon avr x3300w

My room dimension: 12' x 15'

I've had the svs sb 1000 for more than 3 years(I used it with audio engine a5+), but I just got the KEF LS50 about 2 weeks ago and I felt like the bass of the svs is not tight and punchy enough for my taste. And I'm looking for a subwoofer that has the tightest and cleanest bass to pair the the KEF.

The two subwoofers I'm looking at is PSA S1500 and PSA S1801. Both are 725w RMS. How much space the subwoofer gonna take up is not a problem for me. I just want a the best sound possible.
I will be moving into a bigger room next year, so future-proofing recommendations will be very helpful!

Any recommendations are much appreciated!

Thanks everyone in advance!

 

[speakerman39]

My current system:
+speakers: KEF LS50
+subwoofer: svs sb 1000
+receiver: Denon avr x3300w

My room dimension: 12' x 15'

I've had the svs sb 1000 for more than 3 years(I used it with audio engine a5+), but I just got the KEF LS50 about 2 weeks ago and I felt like the bass of the svs is not tight and punchy enough for my taste. And I'm looking for a subwoofer that has the tightest and cleanest bass to pair the the KEF.

The two subwoofers I'm looking at is PSA S1500 and PSA S1801. Both are 725w RMS. How much space the subwoofer gonna take up is not a problem for me. I just want a the best sound possible.
I will be moving into a bigger room next year, so future-proofing recommendations will be very helpful!

Any recommendations are much appreciated!

Thanks everyone in advance!

Andrew, I also like the tight, punchy bass that is very well articulated. My room is exactly the same size as yours and at one time I owned dual PSA S1500's. One was plenty, but I added a 2nd to smooth things out more. However, another sub that you should consider is the Hsu ULS 15 MK2. It is very close to the S1500, but cost a bit less. Had one of them at one time as well. As far as the S1801 goes? I do not have any direct experience with it. But, knowing Tom V. it would be a stellar performer as well. Here is a link for the ULS 15 MK2:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html


At times, you can get a B-stock ULS 15 MK2 for only $762 shipped! Mine was and I never found anything wrong with it. Both of my PSA S1500's were B-stocks as well. You would be hard pressed to go wrong w/any of these mentioned inmho. If you are interested in the ULS 15 MK2, then give Kevin a call as he will be more than happy to assist you. Best wishes!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

For 1500 you could almost get a Hsu ULS-15 mk2 dual drive which will be far better system than any PSA single PSA sub in both quality and quantity.

 

[Andrew Huynh]

@speakerman39: I suppose I've just found the right person to ask. As matter of fact, yesterday I also looked at the HSU ULS15 MKII. Price is not a problem for me , as long as it's below $1500. Which one do you think is better? HSU ULS 15 MKII or PSA S1500? Which one do you think is tighter and punchier? And I also will add a 2nd subwoofer down the line.
@shadyJ: If the PSA S1500 is truly better than the HSU ULS 15 MKII, I don't really mind saving up a little more to get dual PSA S1500 instead of dual HSU. Which one do you think has punchier and tighter bass?

 

[shadyJ]

@speakerman39: I suppose I've just found the right person to ask. As matter of fact, yesterday I also looked at the HSU ULS15 MKII. Price is not a problem for me , as long as it's below $1500. Which one do you think is better? HSU ULS 15 MKII or PSA S1500? Which one do you think is tighter and punchier? And I also will add a 2nd subwoofer down the line.
@shadyJ: If the PSA S1500 is truly better than the HSU ULS 15 MKII, I don't really mind saving up a little more to get dual PSA S1500 instead of dual HSU. Which one do you think has punchier and tighter bass?

I would go for the ULS personally. And yes, I have heard the S1500 as well. I think the ULS has a more powerful driver, and the larger enclosure size gives it more room to flex its muscles. It will have more headroom and less distortion. As for 'tighter' bass, that will have a lot more to do with the frequency response of your subwoofer placement in room than the subwoofer itself. In fact, you might just try moving the SB1000 around to see what the change in the response is. You can probably get a significant upgrade by simply moving it to a better spot. If it is in a bad spot, and you intend to put the replacement sub in the same location, that will do very little to improve the sound. One spot you might try is directly behind your listening position, that gives you a lot more punch than tucked in a corner.

 

[speakerman39]

@speakerman39: I suppose I've just found the right person to ask. As matter of fact, yesterday I also looked at the HSU ULS15 MKII. Price is not a problem for me , as long as it's below $1500. Which one do you think is better? HSU ULS 15 MKII or PSA S1500? Which one do you think is tighter and punchier? And I also will add a 2nd subwoofer down the line.
@shadyJ: If the PSA S1500 is truly better than the HSU ULS 15 MKII, I don't really mind saving up a little more to get dual PSA S1500 instead of dual HSU. Which one do you think has punchier and tighter bass?

Lets just say when you compare the performance of the S1500 to that of the ULS 15 MK2 it is merely splitting hairs. There really is NOT that much of a difference. Yes, it is true that I sold off my ULS 15 MK2 and ended up w/dual S1500's. But, I can easily say that I would have been just as happy with dual ULS 15 MK2's.

You seem rather picky when it comes to your low end/bass. We are both on the same page in that regard. Anyone that truly knows me knows first hand that I am very picky when it comes to bass. More specifically, I will NOT tolerate boomy, sloppy, over-hung, slow bass in my setup. Instead I will have tight, punchy, and very well articulated bass that has distinction in the transients. No one-note wonders in my setup. In fact, I want to hear the bass player's fingers on the strings. Moreover, I want my bass to hit on a dime AND stop on a dime.

Now keep in mind, proper placement will minimize the dips below 200 hz. Your room is rather small like mine. As such, you will have to tame some peaks with proper EQ. Room Gain can be a real problem in small rooms. Both the S1500 and/or the ULS 15 MK2 will allow you to do deal with that. However, I did find it easier to dial in the S1500's. The ULS 15 MK2 is a better looking sub though inmho. Hence, if you have a WAF to deal with, then that could come into play.

In short, if I had to do it all over again I would certainly opt for the ULS 15 MK2 and be done with it. I also encourage you to buy a CSL UMiK 1 and download REW if you want to take it to the next level. Proper placement will minimize the dips and proper EQ will tame the peaks thus reducing standing wave issues. Hope you find my post helpful. In the end, it is more about what YOU think. Not what everybody else thinks. Best wishes!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[everettT]

At the $1500 price point, you might consider a single SVS sb13. IIRC @PENG is using the sb13 with his kefs.

 

[Irvrobinson]

My current system:
+speakers: KEF LS50
+subwoofer: svs sb 1000
+receiver: Denon avr x3300w

My room dimension: 12' x 15'

I've had the svs sb 1000 for more than 3 years(I used it with audio engine a5+), but I just got the KEF LS50 about 2 weeks ago and I felt like the bass of the svs is not tight and punchy enough for my taste. And I'm looking for a subwoofer that has the tightest and cleanest bass to pair the the KEF.

The two subwoofers I'm looking at is PSA S1500 and PSA S1801. Both are 725w RMS. How much space the subwoofer gonna take up is not a problem for me. I just want a the best sound possible.
I will be moving into a bigger room next year, so future-proofing recommendations will be very helpful!

Any recommendations are much appreciated!

Thanks everyone in advance!

Ha! The 5+ and an SB1000 is what I use in my Bay Area apartment. In a room that small I'd recommend buying a second SB1000. Those KEFs are -3db at 79Hz, because they're really intended as near-field monitors. I think two SB1000s will be more than a match in your room.

 

[speakerman39]

Ha! The 5+ and an SB1000 is what I use in my Bay Area apartment. In a room that small I'd recommend buying a second SB1000. Those KEFs are -3db at 79Hz, because they're really intended as near-field monitors. I think two SB1000s will be more than a match in your room.

Irv, I have owned a SVS PB 10-NSD and the PB 12-NSD some years ago. No matter where/how they were placed, I never could get them to sound very musical. Sure, with HT they both kicked arse. Not too long ago, I owned (4) SVS SB 12-NSD's. Although they were more musical in my room, they still were not on the level of either the S1500 and/or the ULS 15 MK2's inho. My room is exactly the same size as thew OP's. Not to mention, the OP is a bit picky with his bass.

I am sure the SB13 Ultra would be stellar. But for the price of a single SB13 Ultra the OP can nearly get dual ULS 15 MK2's that will easily trounce a single SB13. Either way, the OP is going to have to tame the peaks. Proper EQ is certainly going to be essential. I know it sure was in mine.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Irvrobinson]

Irv, I have owned a SVS PB 10-NSD and the PB 12-NSD some years ago. No matter where/how they were placed, I never could get them to sound very musical. Sure, with HT they both kicked arse. Not too long ago, I owned (4) SVS SB 12-NSD's. Although they were more musical in my room, they still were not on the level of either the S1500 and/or the ULS 15 MK2's inho. My room is exactly the same size as thew OP's. Not to mention, the OP is a bit picky with his bass.

I am sure the SB13 Ultra would be stellar. But for the price of a single SB13 Ultra the OP can nearly get dual ULS 15 MK2's that will easily trounce a single SB13. Either way, the OP is going to have to tame the peaks. Proper EQ is certainly going to be essential. I know it sure was in mine.


Cheers,

Phil

Phil, I don't know what a musical sub is, and I've never heard the PB10 or the SB12, but the SB1000 sounds musical to me. The LS50 has a pretty limited dynamic range, it is quite small, so 110db of output at 25Hz is going to be overkill, IMO.

I am wondering how Andrew adjusted the crossover point and the sub level when he changed speakers.

 

[shadyJ]

Irv, I have owned a SVS PB 10-NSD and the PB 12-NSD some years ago. No matter where/how they were placed, I never could get them to sound very musical. Sure, with HT they both kicked arse. Not too long ago, I owned (4) SVS SB 12-NSD's. Although they were more musical in my room, they still were not on the level of either the S1500 and/or the ULS 15 MK2's inho. My room is exactly the same size as thew OP's. Not to mention, the OP is a bit picky with his bass.

I am sure the SB13 Ultra would be stellar. But for the price of a single SB13 Ultra the OP can nearly get dual ULS 15 MK2's that will easily trounce a single SB13. Either way, the OP is going to have to tame the peaks. Proper EQ is certainly going to be essential. I know it sure was in mine.


Cheers,

Phil

Response shape explains everything here. Look at the SB-1000 and SB-12 NSD responses:
SB-1000:

SB-12 NSD:

Notice the boosted response knee and heavy high-pass filter slope. SVS wants these subs to imitate the response of a ported sub, but they have very little excursion at the low end to carry out that response for anything more than modest output in that range. This isn't bad if you want more deep bass in a room that doesn't get much low-end gain, but it is not a good idea for integrating these subs into a room that does get substantial gain. In my opinion, these subs do not have enough displacement to make this type of response curve worthwhile. Thankfully SVS has corrected this somewhat with their SB-2000 frequency response:

With the ULS-15 mk2, you can set the response either way to suite either situation:

Its Q control can also give you some fine-tuning ability to adjust the response from there, as well. I believe the S1500 also has a selection of responses to fit levels of room gain too.

 

[speakerman39]

Phil, I don't know what a musical sub is, and I've never heard the PB10 or the SB12, but the SB1000 sounds musical to me. The LS50 has a pretty limited dynamic range, it is quite small, so 110db of output at 25Hz is going to be overkill, IMO.

I am wondering how Andrew adjusted the crossover point and the sub level when he changed speakers.

Irv, no matter where I placed either the PD-10/12-NSD I never could get them to sound tight or punchy. In fact, they sounded very thick and always behind the music. Merely leaving me with one-note bass throughout. Yes, the room played a part, but I did everything possible albeit trying many different placements and got the same results. Sure, the SB12-NSD's were better in terms of tightness/punchiness. But, even w/(4) of them both the S1500's and the ULS 15 MK2 were on another level over all.

The OP asked about the S1500 and the S1801 originally. So, I suggested to the OP that he also consider the ULS 15 MK2. I have no experience with the S1801/S1800, but do both the S1500 and/or the ULS 15 MK2. Dollar for dollar there is not much out there that is going to best the ULS 15 MK2 inmho. Later, the OP asked about the ULS 15 MK2 and the S1500 specifically. At that point, the OP is merely just splitting hairs. Performance wise, there was NOT much difference between the two in my room. Which is also the same size as the OP's. That is all I was attempting to say Irv.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Irvrobinson]

Response shape explains everything here. Look at the SB-1000 and SB-12 NSD responses:
SB-1000:

SB-12 NSD:

Notice the boosted response knee and heavy high-pass filter slope. SVS wants these subs to imitate the response of a ported sub, but they have very little excursion at the low end to carry out that response for anything more than modest output in that range. This isn't bad if you want more deep bass in a room that doesn't get much low-end gain, but it is not a good idea for integrating these subs into a room that does get substantial gain. In my opinion, these subs do not have enough displacement to make this type of response curve worthwhile. Thankfully SVS has corrected this somewhat with their SB-2000 frequency response:

With the ULS-15 mk2, you can set the response either way to suite either situation:

Its Q control can also give you some fine-tuning ability to adjust the response from there, as well. I believe the S1500 also has a selection of responses to fit levels of room gain too.

James, how is it that two SB1000s aren't going to match anything the LS50s are going to do? I've heard the LS50s; in a 12x15 room I seriously doubt they can drive more than 95db peaks at a listening seat at 100Hz. I think they do sound better than the 5+ for music within their limits (a lot better, actually), but volume monsters they're not.

 

[shadyJ]

James, how is it that two SB1000s aren't going to match anything the LS50s are going to do? I've heard the LS50s; in a 12x15 room I seriously doubt they can drive more than 95db peaks at a listening seat at 100Hz. I think they do sound better than the 5+ for music within their limits (a lot better, actually), but volume monsters they're not.

I don't think the LS50s are as limited as you think. I have heard a pair handle a large conference room pretty capably, and I don't think they lacked dynamic range in that instance.

As for being a match for the SB-1000s, I don't claim that they are or are not. I don't really know the dynamic range of either one. What I am saying is their response shape may not play well in a room with substantial gain. If room gain starts building up a lot below 40 Hz, than you are going to have an elevated response below 40 Hz with a subwoofer that has an intrinsic flat response below that point. That may add a sense of a delayed response to music with subharmonic content in that region since deep bass frequencies take so long to develop (also human perception takes longer to recognize deep bass sound than other frequencies).

Furthermore, the low excursion of these small sealed subs can easily get overtaxed by deep frequencies. Remember that it takes four times the excursion for a sealed subwoofer to play 30 Hz as loudly as a 60 Hz signal. What is the Xmax of the SB-1000? 10mm maybe? It really shouldn't be trying to play deep bass at all. It will rapidly run into heavy distortion unless it has a very strict limiter. By the way, those type of filters can add substantial group delay, to wit the GD graph of the SB-12 NSD:

All that group delay is necessarily the product of the filters used to give it its response shape. Since the worst of it is mostly under 40 Hz, it probably isn't that audible, but it just isn't needed at all, because its response shape was, in my opinion, not a great choice for its design. The SB-1000 looks to share this problem, but the SB-2000 looks like it has a better response shape for this type of design.

Even though I just went through some problems that I see with the SB-1000, I don't think it is terrible. I am sure it can be made to sound fine. I think it would not be suitable for applications with a lot of deep bass. For conventional music, it should work well, and the size and weight are real pluses.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Andrew, don't let any of my discussions with these two lead you to believe that I think the HSUs are a bad choice. It's just that it seems like the bias on AH always seems to go for massive subs. I think big subs have their place for sure (my 3rd floor "Outpost" apartment is not one of them), and in my primary single-family home with a rather large room I run bigger everything, but I was just trying to point out a potential cheaper alternative that builds on what you already have. 3-6db of more output and two bass sources may be just the ticket for output and smoothness with music. Two HSUs will have awesome performance; and I noticed they're on sale in Satin Black for $1499.

 

[speakerman39]

Andrew, don't let any of my discussions with these two lead you to believe that I think the HSUs are a bad choice. It's just that it seems like the bias on AH always seems to go for massive subs. I think big subs have their place for sure (my 3rd floor "Outpost" apartment is not one of them), and in my primary single-family home with a rather large room I run bigger everything, but I was just trying to point out a potential cheaper alternative that builds on what you already have. 3-6db of more output and two bass sources may be just the ticket for output and smoothness with music. Two HSUs will have awesome performance; and I noticed they're on sale in Satin Black for $1499.

Irv, I think that you make a good point here. But, the S1500/ULS 15 MK2 is really not all that big inmho. Being sealed helps in that regard. The idea of dual SB1000 is alluring. However, as Shady has pointed out the excursion limits maybe be somewhat problematic. That is why many opt for the SB2000's instead. Even the SB12-NSD's have the very same issue. At least, that is how I understand what Shady is saying. Both of you guy's intellect is way above mine. Especially, in this hobby.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Irv, I think that you make a good point here. But, the S1500/ULS 15 MK2 is really not all that big inmho. Being sealed helps in that regard. The idea of dual SB1000 is alluring. However, as Shady has pointed out the excursion limits maybe be somewhat problematic. That is why many opt for the SB2000's instead. Even the SB12-NSD's have the very same issue. At least, that is how I understand what Shady is saying. Both of you guy's intellect is way above mine. Especially, in this hobby.


Cheers,

Phil

The excursion limits are only a problem for deep bass. What is a more significant issue is trying to force a flat response on subwoofer whose design is not favorable for such a response. And also bringing a flat response into a room that will balloon the low end of that type of response which could make for a 'heavy' or weighted sound on the low end.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The excursion limits are only a problem for deep bass. What is a more significant issue is trying to force a flat response on subwoofer whose design is not favorable for such a response. And also bringing a flat response into a room that will balloon the low end of that type of response which could make for a 'heavy' or weighted sound on the low end.

That may all be true, but I've got my SB1000 placed in a corner near the mains (which are on my desk), and with an 80Hz crossover and some experimentation with the volume and phase controls, my in-room response measures mostly flat down to 30Hz, which is as low as I'll achieve at volume levels I use this system for. Compared to the effort I put into my primary system, with PEQs and placement experimentation for the sub and the mains my effort was minimal. Perhaps I just got lucky, perhaps my room doesn't provide a lot of LF gain, or perhaps I'm just not listening at a loud enough level to stress the sub or the room, but I'm not seeing the downsides you mention.

 

[speakerman39]

That may all be true, but I've got my SB1000 placed in a corner near the mains (which are on my desk), and with an 80Hz crossover and some experimentation with the volume and phase controls, my in-room response measures mostly flat down to 30Hz, which is as low as I'll achieve at volume levels I use this system for. Compared to the effort I put into my primary system, with PEQs and placement experimentation for the sub and the mains my effort was minimal. Perhaps I just got lucky, perhaps my room doesn't provide a lot of LF gain, or perhaps I'm just not listening at a loud enough level to stress the sub or the room, but I'm not seeing the downsides you mention.

Irv, not all small rooms suffer from room gain issues. You sound a lot like me in that I do not listen at crazy levels either. I do rock out every once in a while. Would do it a lot more if I could get away with it. Use my JBL Everest headphones a lot too. Keeps me from getting evicted....LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[<eargiant]

My current system:
+speakers: KEF LS50
+subwoofer: svs sb 1000
+receiver: Denon avr x3300w

My room dimension: 12' x 15'

I've had the svs sb 1000 for more than 3 years(I used it with audio engine a5+), but I just got the KEF LS50 about 2 weeks ago and I felt like the bass of the svs is not tight and punchy enough for my taste. And I'm looking for a subwoofer that has the tightest and cleanest bass to pair the the KEF.

The two subwoofers I'm looking at is PSA S1500 and PSA S1801. Both are 725w RMS. How much space the subwoofer gonna take up is not a problem for me. I just want a the best sound possible.
I will be moving into a bigger room next year, so future-proofing recommendations will be very helpful!

Any recommendations are much appreciated!

Thanks everyone in advance!

Take a look at the REL S series. Not sealed as they are PR but definitely worth considering for a speaker like the LS50's.

I was not a 2.1 guy and was concerned about adding something that would take away from the extraordinary abilities I heard in the 805 D2's. I added a REL S/2 connected as recommended via high level neutrik and I love it. The best sub I've ever heard in a 2 channel set-up, made me a believer. My room is ~ 20 x 12.

Good luck with your decision.

https://rel.net/product-category/subwoofers/reference-series/