Graphs from REW

[Mitchibo]

That's what I'd do.

Oh, I jumped in the waters. Got my mini hooked up now with filters generated by REW, then ran Audyssey. Check it out:

View attachment 22042
I'm pretty damned happy with this result. There is no smoothing in this measurement. I'm gonna just listen and enjoy for a while now. I'll prolly go back and do some more in a week or 2. See if I can do something about that dip at around 22hz and smooth out the response above 120hz or so. There is a definite, audible improvement in my system.

 

[Pogre]

This one looks pretty good. Looks like you have a nice house curve going there. A little peak at about 45hz and a saddle between 50 and 90hz.

You're getting much better extension with your deeper bass now. You have to be able to hear it too. I'm just learning here, but I'd try putting a +3db low shelf filter on there and see what it does. I'm getting a little bit deeper bass than my subs are spec'd in my room. If your subs are good to 24 hz you might be able to get it down close to 20.

Before doing that though, I'd consider moving stuff around a little and see how smooth you can get with just placement first. Do a control sweep with no eq, no Audyssey or filters at all, then see if moving things around, even a few inches either way, makes any improvements. Take another sweep after every adjustment and compare.

One big factor for me was getting my speakers a little further from the walls and moving my subs closer together. That made some improvements by itself. Then I didn't have to do as much with the mini, which made things easier for Audyssey.

 

[Mitchibo]

This one looks pretty good. Looks like you have a nice house curve going there. A little peak at about 45hz and a saddle between 50 and 90hz.
View attachment 22064
You're getting much better extension with your deeper bass now. You have to be able to hear it too. I'm just learning here, but I'd try putting a +3db low shelf filter on there and see what it does. I'm getting a little bit deeper bass than my subs are spec'd in my room. If your subs are good to 24 hz you might be able to get it down close to 20.

Before doing that though, I'd consider moving stuff around a little and see how smooth you can get with just placement first. Do a control sweep with no eq, no Audyssey or filters at all, then see if moving things around, even a few inches either way, makes any improvements. Take another sweep after every adjustment and compare.

One big factor for me was getting my speakers a little further from the walls and moving my subs closer together. That made some improvements by itself. Then I didn't have to do as much with the mini, which made things easier for Audyssey.

That's an excellent idea.

 

[TheWarrior]

That's an excellent idea.

Be careful, those subs simply are not designed to play low. Boosting at and below resonance of the woofer is a great way to over work the driver and produce that 'one note bass' symptom. Think car audio, BOOM BOOM. Loud? Hell yeah! Accurate? Not a chance!

 

[Pogre]

Be careful, those subs simply are not designed to play low. Boosting at and below resonance of the woofer is a great way to over work the driver and produce that 'one note bass' symptom. Think car audio, BOOM BOOM. Loud? Hell yeah! Accurate? Not a chance!

Yeah, that's why I put a little disclaimer in my post, "I'm just learning here.". I don't know enough about PEQ to give rock solid advice.

I think the part of my last post to focus on would be messing with placement a little first, before adding any PEQ or Audyssey. I think that helped my case as much as adding the mini did.

 

[TheWarrior]

I think the part of my last post to focus on would be messing with placement a little first, before adding any PEQ or Audyssey. I think that helped my case as much as adding the mini did.

Floyd Toole will help you understand how to utilize room boundaries in conjunction with pressure sources (subwoofers) to constructively or destructively drive standing waves(room resonances) at the listening positions. That again, is going in to why Audyssey has absolutely no idea what it is doing, except to force a room to follow a prescribed curve that was intended for commercial cinema. And that is also why I do not recommend using REW's auto room setup because it is limited to rooms with 4 walls, and does not account for placement of subwoofers vs listening position which is as important as identifying your room modes. Glad you found improvement, but I would question how much of that is progress vs. difference.

Floyd also points out when he started at Harman that their staff had never performed a blind listening test, 'they are professionals' he was told. He went on to put those 'pros' through double blind tests and correlated the results: In a sighted test, people will hear whatever they want to hear, and will give far different subjective ratings than they would blind.

 

[Pogre]

Floyd Toole will help you understand how to utilize room boundaries in conjunction with pressure sources (subwoofers) to constructively or destructively drive standing waves(room resonances) at the listening positions. That again, is going in to why Audyssey has absolutely no idea what it is doing, except to force a room to follow a prescribed curve that was intended for commercial cinema. And that is also why I do not recommend using REW's auto room setup because it is limited to rooms with 4 walls, and does not account for placement of subwoofers vs listening position which is as important as identifying your room modes. Glad you found improvement, but I would question how much of that is progress vs. difference.

Floyd also points out when he started at Harman that their staff had never performed a blind listening test, 'they are professionals' he was told. He went on to put those 'pros' through double blind tests and correlated the results: In a sighted test, people will hear whatever they want to hear, and will give far different subjective ratings than they would blind.

I saw the room auto room setup in REW, but didn't mess with it for the reasons you stated. My room is more complicated than a 4 walled room.

As far as progress vs difference, if the difference translates to "sounds better" wouldn't that be progress?

 

[TheWarrior]

I saw the room auto room setup in REW, but didn't mess with it for the reasons you stated. My room is more complicated than a 4 walled room.

As far as progress vs difference, if the difference translates to "sounds better" wouldn't that be progress?

Didn't you upload REW measurements to minidsp to program bi quads? That is the same situation, as the computer never understands the room the subs are playing in.

But I can't really answer your question about progress vs difference, because a baseline LP measurement only tells part of the story. Without all relevant data, it's hard to say how well everything was working together to begin with. Setting delays can be a big hassle that is often overlooked, for example. Please, please, do not read this as me being critical of you or the work you've put in! I merely cited the example of Floyd's tests to keep things objective. My only objective is to take the science I've been learning and try to convey it to your benefit!

 

[Pogre]

Didn't you upload REW measurements to minidsp to program bi quads? That is the same situation, as the computer never understands the room the subs are playing in.

But I can't really answer your question about progress vs difference, because a baseline LP measurement only tells part of the story. Without all relevant data, it's hard to say how well everything was working together to begin with. Setting delays can be a big hassle that is often overlooked, for example. Please, please, do not read this as me being critical of you or the work you've put in! I merely cited the example of Floyd's tests to keep things objective. My only objective is to take the science I've been learning and try to convey it to your benefit!

It sounds a lot better to my ears now. That's about all of the data I need.

 

[TheWarrior]

It sounds a lot better to my ears now. That's about all of the data I need.

Awesome! And yes, your listening enjoyment is the end-all.

But this is Audioholics. And being one, myself, I feel obligated to send as much information your way until you block me!

 

[PENG]

Floyd Toole will help you understand how to utilize room boundaries in conjunction with pressure sources (subwoofers) to constructively or destructively drive standing waves(room resonances) at the listening positions. That again, is going in to why Audyssey has absolutely no idea what it is doing, except to force a room to follow a prescribed curve that was intended for commercial cinema. And that is also why I do not recommend using REW's auto room setup because it is limited to rooms with 4 walls, and does not account for placement of subwoofers vs listening position which is as important as identifying your room modes. Glad you found improvement, but I would question how much of that is progress vs. difference.

Floyd also points out when he started at Harman that their staff had never performed a blind listening test, 'they are professionals' he was told. He went on to put those 'pros' through double blind tests and correlated the results: In a sighted test, people will hear whatever they want to hear, and will give far different subjective ratings than they would blind.

I think you are just stating your opinion, not necessarily facts unless you really know how Audyssey works. That would inevitably involve their proprietary information. I an understand why you think so highly of Dr. Floyd Toole, and I do too, and I am also considering getting that book, but that does not mean Dr. Chris Kyriakakis research team don't know what they are doing.

 

[TheWarrior]

I thiink you are just stating your opinion, not necessarily facts unless you really know how Audyssey works. That would inevitably involve their proprietary information. I an understand why you think so highly of Dr. Floyd Toole, and I do too, and I am also considering getting that book, but that does not mean Dr. Chris Kyriakakis research team don't know what they are doing.

Thank you for your opinion!

The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems.

Audyssey is a product known as 'room correction' that never once asks you for the dimensions of your room.

This paper and Floyd's latest edition go in to pretty clear detail why some 'room correction' solutions, are not solutions at all.

I don't want my sound to conform to a prescribed response curve. That's my opinion. And I look forward to the day that you and I can afford to buy 'auto setup' products that are truly effective, without needing to buy JBL Synthesis!

 

[Pogre]

Thank you for your opinion!

The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems.

Audyssey is a product known as 'room correction' that never once asks you for the dimensions of your room.

This paper and Floyd's latest edition go in to pretty clear detail why some 'room correction' solutions, are not solutions at all.

I don't want my sound to conform to a prescribed response curve. That's my opinion. And I look forward to the day that you and I can afford to buy 'auto setup' products that are truly effective, without needing to buy JBL Synthesis!

Until I learned I could tweak things further I was pretty happy with XT32. I did have several measurements with Audyssey on and off (all accidentally not saved... ). It not only sounds better to me after running Audyssey, I was able to measure it. Audyssey did make a big improvement by itself.

 

[panteragstk]

Thank you for your opinion!

The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems.

Audyssey is a product known as 'room correction' that never once asks you for the dimensions of your room.

This paper and Floyd's latest edition go in to pretty clear detail why some 'room correction' solutions, are not solutions at all.

I don't want my sound to conform to a prescribed response curve. That's my opinion. And I look forward to the day that you and I can afford to buy 'auto setup' products that are truly effective, without needing to buy JBL Synthesis!

That brings up a point I've been wondering about. Why doesn't JBL put the Synthesis correction in any of the Harmon AVR's (other than money I guess)? It would make those very attractive. JBL even has room correction for Live sound that works very well.

I digress...

 

[ATLAudio]

No one disagrees with Toole's place in audio authority, but one should not consider him anything close to a singular authority. Same goes with Chris K at Audyssey. Both men have volumes of white papers you can feel free to comb through if you feel properly educated to do so and come to a proper conclusion. Good Luck.


That said, gurus here can crap on Audyssey, or any other REq, all they want. But, all you have to do is experience a system with Audyssey, or any other REq approach provide improvement, and you'll see these broad generalizations attacking REq to be inappropriate; and this is not very hard to do.


Largely this argument is as neckbeard as it gets. At the end of the day I have to have an AVR. The leading units all have some flavor of AEq on board. Whether I think it can wipe my arse squeaky clean, or I think they are snake oil, I'm likely going to have one whether I like it or not.
If you don't want to use it, by all means don't. If you do want to use it, go on with your bad self.

 

[PENG]

That brings up a point I've been wondering about. Why doesn't JBL put the Synthesis correction in any of the Harmon AVR's (other than money I guess)? It would make those very attractive. JBL even has room correction for Live sound that works very well.

I digress...

I don't even know where to buy it from, is it available for home audio? Then there are many users who swear by Dirac Live, Trinnov, RoomPerfect, and Anthem ARC, among others.

 

[TheWarrior]

Until I learned I could tweak things further I was pretty happy with XT32. I did have several measurements with Audyssey on and off (all accidentally not saved... ). It not only sounds better to me after running Audyssey, I was able to measure it. Audyssey did make a big improvement by itself.

And I thought it degraded the performance of several pairs of speakers.

It sounds like we both have open living rooms. What is sad is that Audyssey couldn't deliver better performance than my manual set up. I found the forced room curve limited high frequency extension.

That brings up a point I've been wondering about. Why doesn't JBL put the Synthesis correction in any of the Harmon AVR's (other than money I guess)? It would make those very attractive. JBL even has room correction for Live sound that works very well.

I digress...

Trickle down economics. At least this time "1%ers" are paying big bucks for products like Synthesis. But only so many people can afford/house/support 16+ channels anyway. Seems like their aim is to fund the research and let the market do it's thing. See how far consumers are really willing to go with the number of speakers in a room and then release products based on... research!

No one disagrees with Toole's place in audio authority, but one should not consider him anything close to a singular authority. Same goes with Chris K at Audyssey. Both men have volumes of white papers you can feel free to comb through if you feel properly educated to do so and come to a proper conclusion. Good Luck.


That said, gurus here can crap on Audyssey all they want. But, all you have to do is experience a system with Audyssey, or any other REq approach provide improvement, and you'll see these broad generalizations attacking REq to be inappropriate; and this is not very hard to do.

You've read Floyd. Every claim is given a citation to someone else's research.

Chris has done some research, but not much has pertained to home theaters. But his work on Byzantine churches is fascinating!

I've experienced several systems with Audyssey, yours included. I don't think it is an improvement over manual set up, only more convenient.

 

[Pogre]

And I thought it degraded the performance of several pairs of speakers.

It sounds like we both have open living rooms. What is sad is that Audyssey couldn't deliver better performance than my manual set up. I found the forced room curve limited high frequency extension.

Well I'm sure your manual setup involved a lot more effort than moving a mic around and pushing a button. I don't think Audyssey is perfect, but it has its place. I was able to dial the subs in maybe better than Audyssey, but then Audyssey took that and made it even better. It also did a great job with distances (timing/phasing?) and level matching.

 

[panteragstk]

I don't even know where to buy it from, is it available for home audio? Then there are many users who swear by Dirac Live, Trinnov, RoomPerfect, and Anthem ARC, among others.

Well, it would appear that it is available in the Harmon "Luxury" line. Just not HK receivers. Lexicon, levinson and revel only.

I guess you could also buy this thing (it does look awesome).

 

[ATLAudio]

@TheWarrior

"You've read Floyd. Every claim is given a citation to someone else's research."

CLICK
What's your point? Did I somewhere say that he fails to properly cite his sources? Are you suggesting that his use of citations put him on a pedestal? But yes, his work is indeed well cited, as is the work of many, if not the vast majority of researchers in this field and others. Moreover, well cited material doesn't stop it from being dead wrong in the long run.

"Chris has done some research, but not much has pertained to home theaters."
[citation needed]

What's your point? Also is it JUST quantity of research what you're looking for?

"I've experienced several systems with Audyssey, yours included. I don't think it is an improvement over manual set up, only more convenient."

CLICK
My point here is that in my experience, Audyssey is an improvement over doing nothing. Again, if you've not had the same experience, I'd suggest not using it. There's a thousand things on my AVR I'll never use, I'd have no problem making it 1001, but this one works for me, so I use it. That's why this debate is beardy and dumb.