Low Volume Fidelity VS Power Ratings

[panteragstk]

Would 'proper' listening test results mean much to you if you hear different? Will you force yourself to trust the results and ignore what you hear?

I'm sure most of us would. If we had blind tests for power amps of multiple class, brand, and design most of us would admit we heard a difference if we did.

The thing is, I doubt most of us would hear a difference. I've tested I don't know how many amps over the years and I've personally never heard a difference with speakers that are easy to drive.

The only time I can remember noticing a difference was in my example above or when I needed more power and got a more powerful amp.

If all things are equal then I don't see how you could hear a difference. I'd love to participate in a listening test though. I may surprise myself.

 

[KEW]

Not talking about top models which can be class ab.

What if i and a couple of others are from that minority? I did say that curve work for majority. Please read my post again.

This is news to me, please share which AVR's use class D Amps!
Maybe Pyle?
I know Pioneer had a infamous jaunt into class D before they figured out how to do it right, but I assumed that they stayed away from it after hurting their reputation.

 

[Swerd]

Would 'proper' listening test results mean much to you if you hear different? Will you force yourself to trust the results and ignore what you hear?

Evidently I'm wasting my time talking with you. It's time for a facepalm…

 

[Andrein]

Evidently I'm wasting my time talking with you. It's time for a facepalm…

Yes you probably are if this is all you concluded from what i said

 

[KEW]

Would 'proper' listening test results mean much to you if you hear different? Will you force yourself to trust the results and ignore what you hear?

The test would reflect what you hear. How could it not?
Now if the blind test conflicted with the sighted test, that would establish that the sighted information biased my perception.

 

[Andrein]

The test would reflect what you hear. How could it not?
Now if the blind test conflicted with the sighted test, that would establish that the sighted information biased my perception.

I dont have statistics and i might be wrong. I am just trying to find explanation to why amps and avr might sound different with the same speakers. Without referring to bias. When i bought emotiva xpa5 and listened to it i did not like it at all. I actually did not care much about classes at the time. It is just after that i listened to some class ab amps that i liked much more. Hence my attitude to class d. I believe there are good class d amps it is just i wont risk with them any more.

I did a blind test with emotiva and monolith actually after that and got the same thing. Also i forgot to switch from emotivs back to monolith a couple of times and realized that something is wrong with the sound. Something is missing.

 

[Pogre]

Yes you probably are if this is all you concluded from what i said

All I can say is, I didn't notice any appreciable difference between my SR6011 by itself and my Monolith 7 amplifier. Would I like there to have been? Sure! I wanted there to be but I didn't go in with unrealistic expectations and I'm still not disappointed. The only differences I could really detect were at -5 and above and I've been critically listening to all of my music for the last couple of days.

I'm also sure that you hear everything you say. Bias is very strong and hard to overcome. That's why double blind tests exist. To eliminate bias. I seriously think you'll be surprised if you participated in one, and if you haven't then all of your opinions are anecdotal and you have no argument.

You can insult my speakers, my ears, my listening skills... or whatever other clever little barbs (though I'd prefer if you didn't continue) you like, but it doesn't change the fact that I heard no appreciable difference, good or bad.

FWIW I have a thread chronicling the purchase of my Monolith and @Hetfield said he would eat his hat if I wasn't blown away by the difference and I remembered it earlier in this thread. Just wanted to clear that up. It was a gentleman's bet and I don't see him chewing on anything!

 

[Andrein]

The test would reflect what you hear. How could it not?
Now if the blind test conflicted with the sighted test, that would establish that the sighted information biased my perception.

I bought one am

All I can say is, I didn't notice any appreciable difference between my SR6011 by itself and my Monolith 7 amplifier. Would I like there to have been? Sure! I wanted there to be but I didn't go in with unrealistic expectations and I'm still not disappointed. The only differences I could really detect were at -5 and above and I've been critically listening to all of my music for the last couple of days.

I'm also sure that you hear everything you say. Bias is very strong and hard to overcome. That's why double blind tests exist. To eliminate bias. I seriously think you'll be surprised if you participated in one, and if you haven't then all of your opinions are anecdotal and you have no argument.

You can insult my speakers, my ears, my listening skills... or whatever other clever little barbs (though I'd prefer if you didn't continue) you like, but it doesn't change the fact that I heard no appreciable difference, good or bad.

FWIW I have a thread chronicling the purchase of the Monolith and Hetfield said he would eat his hat if I wasn't blown away by the difference and I remembered it earlier in this thread. Just wanted to clear that up. It was a gentleman's bet and I don't hear Hetfield chewing on anything!

Maybe if i had 6011 i would not find any diff with monolith also. But between a860 and monolith and xpa5 and monolith i found difference.

 

[Andrein]

All I can say is, I didn't notice any appreciable difference between my SR6011 by itself and my Monolith 7 amplifier. Would I like there to have been? Sure! I wanted there to be but I didn't go in with unrealistic expectations and I'm still not disappointed. The only differences I could really detect were at -5 and above and I've been critically listening to all of my music for the last couple of days.

I'm also sure that you hear everything you say. Bias is very strong and hard to overcome. That's why double blind tests exist. To eliminate bias. I seriously think you'll be surprised if you participated in one, and if you haven't then all of your opinions are anecdotal and you have no argument.

You can insult my speakers, my ears, my listening skills... or whatever other clever little barbs (though I'd prefer if you didn't continue) you like, but it doesn't change the fact that I heard no appreciable difference, good or bad.

FWIW I have a thread chronicling the purchase of my Monolith and @Hetfield said he would eat his hat if I wasn't blown away by the difference and I remembered it earlier in this thread. Just wanted to clear that up. It was a gentleman's bet and I don't see him chewing on anything!

Did you have a blind test with 6011 and monolith?

 

[Pogre]

Did you have a blind test with 6011 and monolith?

I shouldn't have to do a double blind to tell if the difference is supposed to "blow me away" should I? I'm pretty sure if the Monolith blew away my SR6011 I'd be able to tell without a DBT, right?

If I were biased in any way I would lean toward the Monolith sounding somehow better. I wanted it to. I was holding my breath hopefully when I started some music through it the first time, but nope. Sounds awesome, absolutely, but I had nowhere even close the the "blown away" experience that I've read about or was told I would experience in my thread. That's all. Wasn't meant to start a big thing. sheesh

 

[mtrycrafts]

I guess every amp sound the same is the conclusion huh? A 279 dollar receiver with it's processing and amp will sound the same as a 10,000 dollar amp? No money doesn't n mean everything, but it means something. Ya know recently read that a Ferrari drives the same as pinto too so this all makes sense now.

...

Oh, the famous car analogy. Really??? Who said cars are the same?

Getting back to amps. Who said ALL amps sound the same?
Since you brought up $$$$, indeed there was an DBT test with Tom Nousaine and another with the Steve Zipser, a Florida hi fi marketer I believe.
Tom and friend took an inexpensive Yamaha stereo integrated amp, perhaps $400.
Steve had $12K monoblocks.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/rec.audio.opinion/ZkuGgasUEmM/oCIVassb2T8J
Open up Steve Maki's name to see the whole test.

Yep, Zipser could not differentiate his amp from the cheap one in a level matched DBT in Zipser's house with his speakers and his memorized music.

Maybe he wasn't a real Golden Ear? But he surely make interesting claims.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... I was holding my breath ...

There you go, why you didn't hear a difference.

 

[Andrein]

I shouldn't have to do a double blind to tell if the difference is supposed to "blow me away" should I? I'm pretty sure if the Monolith blew away my SR6011 I'd be able to tell without a DBT, right?

If I were biased in any way I would lean toward the Monolith sounding somehow better. I wanted it to. I was holding my breath hopefully when I started some music through it the first time, but nope. Sounds awesome, absolutely, but I had nowhere even close the the "blown away" experience that I've read about or was told I would experience in my thread. That's all. Wasn't meant to start a big thing. sheesh

Ok. In my case i hoped xpa5 would be better than a860. I wanted to keep it. But the diff was huge to me and so obvious that also did not require blind test. Sent it back at my cost..

 

[Pogre]

Ok. In my case i hoped xpa5 would be better than a860. I wanted to keep it. But the diff was huge to me and so obvious that also did not require blind test. Sent it back at my cost..

Objective studies do not support your claim. And that's about all I have on this subject. I wanna go see what the other guy is posting about maximizing my system...

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... So you will never have the same perception from the same amp and speaker combination. Hence 'bias' thing is irrelevant.

Of course you will have the same perception. Speaker's impedance is constant to itself. It doesn't change from amp to amp.
Solid state amps output impedance will be low enough that an amps frequency response will be insignificantly different to the next SS amp. A tube amp is different as many/most will have high enough impedance.
So, Bias is always relevant as well as level matching to 0.1dB spl.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ok. In my case i hoped xpa5 would be better than a860. I wanted to keep it. But the diff was huge to me and so obvious that also did not require blind test. Sent it back at my cost..

Wrong.

With that huge "perceived" difference is when you really need it since you don't have any idea if you just perceived a difference(imagined) or there was a real difference.
You need to study human psychology and bias. DBT testing exists for a reason and not only in audio.
But, only if it matters to the person if they want to know if there is a real difference. Period.

 

[Hetfield]

This thread is now very sad. You've all convinced me, I'm taking my Parasound amp and throwing it in the garbage, hooking the speakers back up to the Yamaha because well ever amp sounds identical, no difference.

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[Pogre]

This thread is now very sad. You've all convinced me, I'm taking my Parasound amp and throwing it in the garbage, hooking the speakers back up to the Yamaha because well ever amp sounds identical, no difference.

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That wouldn't make any sense. Why would you throw a nice amp like that in the garbage? I'll pay shipping if you wanna pack it up and send it my way...

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would try another amp before even thinking about changing speakers.

Totally wrong advice. Based in lack of knowledge on the subject.

You can try and return if it sounds the same. Dont be afraid by some of the 'bias' guys. Not everything can be measured. What you hear is much more important than what some ... think.

I see. Now having some facts implies biase?
Actually we can measure a lot more than what you think.
And, it is obvious that you do not REALLY want to listen with your ears alone. You need your eyes to give you the right answer, a sighted listening, unmatched levels most likely.

 

[Hetfield]

That wouldn't make any sense. Why would you throw a nice amp like that in the garbage? I'll pay shipping if you wanna pack it up and send it my way...

Why they all sound the same? Anything we hear as difference is just our perceptions. We are too stupid apparently to trust our own ears as we have found out today from a bunch of fools.

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