Audyssey Editor App- With Screenshots!

[Pogre]

Weird. I'd definitely post up your observations on the FB page, there's some other users there that may be able to shed light or at least share your experience for others to see. Should get a response from Chris K....

I joined the group and made a post. We'll see what he says. Looks like he's pretty active on that page.

*Edit: Threw in a little shout out for Audioholics.

 

[PENG]

I joined the group and made a post. We'll see what he says. Looks like he's pretty active on that page.

*Edit: Threw in a little shout out for Audioholics.

I kept thinking about this weird phenomenon and then something suddenly came to mind.

The app allows you to edit, but if you simply upload the file to the AVR after editing with the app, I am not sure if the changes would take effect. Remember I asked the question before about whether the app was actually doing the EQ or just editing. That was because the way you described how you have been using seemed to indicate the app would do the EQ as well. You may be 100% correct on this, but what if the app is really just an editor and it simply allows you to upload the edited target curve?

I know nothing about the app as I don't own the hardware and software, but I am guessing that if the app only does editing of the "target" curve, then the uploaded file may just be an edited target curve. It is therefore possible that you have to run Audyssey after the upload so that the AVR/Audyssey will try to follow the edited target curve when doing it thing this time, instead of the default target curve build in with the AVR.

Obviously all this is just my logical (hopefully) guess, thinking that you can set a new target, but you still have to take aim and pull the trigger again, otherwise the hole is still in the old target.
Of course all of the above would not explain why you were getting different high frequency response if you use (or thinking that you use) the app to do the EQ. I can't even guess how that happened, yet....

Also, please be aware that even if everything works, a 4 dB boost may not result in exactly 4 dB change in the exact place. The room effects will still be there, hopefully to a lesser degree. I know you mostly know that already, and I understand you are just aiming to get closer to perfection.

 

[Pogre]

I kept thinking about this weird phenomenon and then something suddenly came to mind.

The app allows you to edit, but if you simply upload the file to the AVR after editing with the app, I am not sure if the changes would take effect. Remember I asked the question before about whether the app was actually doing the EQ or just editing. That was because the way you described how you have been using seemed to indicate the app would do the EQ as well. You may be 100% correct on this, but what if the app is really just an editor and it simply allows you to upload the edited target curve?

I know nothing about the app as I don't own the hardware and software, but I am guessing that if the app only does editing of the "target" curve, then the uploaded file may just be an edited target curve. It is therefore possible that you have to run Audyssey after the upload so that the AVR/Audyssey will try to follow the edited target curve when doing it thing this time, instead of the default target curve build in with the AVR.

Obviously all this is just my logical (hopefully) guess, thinking that you can set a new target, but you still have to take aim and pull the trigger again, otherwise the hole is still in the old target.
Of course all of the above would not explain why you were getting different high frequency response if you use (or thinking that you use) the app to do the EQ. I can't even guess how that happened, yet....

Also, please be aware that even if everything works, a 4 dB boost may not result in exactly 4 dB change in the exact place. The room effects will still be there, hopefully to a lesser degree. I know you mostly know that already, and I understand you are just aiming to get closer to perfection.

That's good, logical guess, but I dont think it works that way. If I do another Audyssey measurement it wipes out the old one, curve and all (I'm pretty sure).

And yes, I do understand any adjustments aren't necessarily going to show the same in a real world measurement. I think I understand room modes and the fact that some just can't be eq'd out. I was hoping to see at least a small difference though.

Chris did reply to me just a little bit ago. I think he's suggesting I take 8 measurements with rew from the same positions I took the Audyssey measurements then average them all together. He had some questions for me also and I replied. To be continued for now.

 

[Pogre]

A little update from Chris (after we determined I was doing it right), I guess they're going to do some testing on their end and see if they can reproduce the results I'm getting. I turned the focus toward why the eq'ing and trim levels are so different between the app and the receiver by itself. Including REW in my question just muddied things up so I'll save that one for later.

I feel so on the cutting edge! It's so new they're working out the bugs still and I found one. Lucky me..?

 

[lovinthehd]

I commend you for conducting this experiment!

 

[panteragstk]

I commend you for conducting this experiment!

Yep. Especially since I won't have to now.

 

[Pogre]

Ha! Yeah, it sure is fun...

I find it very interesting that I get these different results when using the app to take measurements vs using the receiver by itself. These are the last couple comments with Chris K in the back and forth I have going with him.

Me: I'm still wondering why would there be a 4db difference in the subwoofer trim levels between using the app for taking Audyssey measurements as opposed to just using the receiver by itself? The difference in the upper frequencies is very audible too and can also be seen on the frequency level adjustments in the Adjust EQ menu after doing a Curve Copy in the Graphic EQ menu. This is without involving REW at all. All things are perfectly equal when I take the 8 Audyssey measurements through both the app and the receiver by itself and it's repeatable. The difference is there every time.

Chris: It could be that your measurements are too close to each other. The algorithm is really designed to capture info from the room. You shouldn't think of it as "no need to capture in other seats". The room info is needed whether you listen in one seat or many.

Me: The measurements I take are about 12" apart at their closest and no further than 24" apart at the furthest from one measurement to the next. I use the same positioning pattern shown in the Audyssey menu. The app always trims my subs at -6 and taking measurements without the app my receiver always trims it -10. Same with the upper frequencies only the app dials them down more than the receiver does. I've done it several times and it's very consistent in its inconsistency.

Chris: We will do a quick check here and report back

That's where we stand right now. I'm waiting for a reply to see what they discover. The thing is, this is repeatable and comes out ~ the same every time I take new measurements.

 

[panteragstk]

I'll say this about measurement positions:

The last time I ran Audyssey in my old theater I ran it using every seating position for both rows. Wasn't ideal, but the results were great. My receiver only has XT, but it did well.

The way I did my measurements was one on each seat in the front row (love seat so only two) and two seats in the back row. Then I placed the mic on the back of each seat instead of the lower part. This gave Audyssey a huge amount of data about my room and the results were very nice. I didn't notice anything odd, but I also used "music mode" which apparently is more flat than movie mode.

Once I get everything for the new theater (among a crapload of other projects I'm not finish with) I'll have either the same receiver as you or maybe one of the new Denon models that come out in September. That way I can test everything the same way you did and see if we end up with similar results.

 

[Pogre]

I sure do like my SR6011. I like the way it looks, how heavy it is and everything is sounding really good. XT32 did wonders for bass correction in my room. It's really quite acceptable as it is now, but I got the app, there's a little room for improvement and it doesn't appear to be working. Plus the consistent inconsistency between the 2 measurements doesn't do me any favors either.

I like what the receiver by itself does with the upper frequencies, but prefer the app's bass settings. I wish I could blend them!

 

[PENG]

I sure do like my SR6011. I like the way it looks, how heavy it is and everything is sounding really good. XT32 did wonders for bass correction in my room. It's really quite acceptable as it is now, but I got the app, there's a little room for improvement and it doesn't appear to be working. Plus the consistent inconsistency between the 2 measurements doesn't do me any favors either.

I like what the receiver by itself does with the upper frequencies, but prefer the app's bass settings. I wish I could blend them!

What you are doing now is going to help all of us who may eventually upgrade our AVP or AVR to models that are compatible with the App, so thanks again, really appreciated.

So Chris did confirm what I always believe, that the reason for using all 8 mic positions is to gather more data about the room so Audyssey can do a better job in EQ'ing for the main listening position. As he said, even if you always sit in the main position, for best results you should still use all 8 mic positions. Based on what I read on various forum, I think this is probably one of the most often misunderstood point.

 

[panteragstk]

What you are doing now is going to help all of us who may eventually upgrade our AVP or AVR to models that are compatible with the App, so thanks again, really appreciated.

So Chris did confirm what I always believe, that the reason for using all 8 mic positions is to gather more data about the room so Audyssey can do a better job in EQ'ing for the main listening position. As he said, even if you always sit in the main position, for best results you should still use all 8 mic positions. Based on what I read on various forum, I think this is probably one of the most often misunderstood point.

That's what I've always read too. It helped me quite a bit using 8 positions spread throughout the room. I experimented with the sweet spot only measurements and wasn't nearly as happy.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's what I've always read too. It helped me quite a bit using 8 positions spread throughout the room. I experimented with the sweet spot only measurements and wasn't nearly as happy.

How do you define sweet spot? Single measurement? Or in a smaller area vs actual physical seats?

 

[Pogre]

Is he saying that the first measurement is the primary seat Audyssey focuses on even spreading the measurements out more? I always thought that would mix up the distances and levels if I just wanted to focus on my seat.

 

[panteragstk]

How do you define sweet spot? Single measurement? Or in a smaller area vs actual physical seats?

Single measurement space. I use my seat for all the measurements. Didn't work as well as spreading them out in the room.

 

[Pogre]

Single measurement space. I use my seat for all the measurements. Didn't work as well as spreading them out in the room.

They recommend no further than 2' in between measurements and within a certain distance of the first measurement. How far out did you spread them out?

 

[panteragstk]

I had two rows. The first row was a 2 seat couch and the second had 3 seats. I used all the seats as measurement points. First on the actual seat then on the headrest. I would have used a mic stand to do all measurements at ear level, but didn't have one. I just had the tiny mic that came with my receiver.

There is a big thread over on AVS that had a lot of detail about how to place the mic correctly. That's where I got the info to measure this way (granted, they said to use a mic stand).

 

[Pogre]

Gotcha. While I'm doing this, I might as well try everything. I just bumped the conversation with Chris. It's been almost 24 hours since his last reply.

I'm not working right now, so this is keeping me busy. I have a ton of free time and I love to learn. It's sometimes a little frustrating, but I'm still having fun. Once I launch the business plan I probably won't be able to play with stuff like this.

 

[Pogre]

I currently have an Audyssey curve loaded in my avr right now that I did not use the the app to take (subs trimmed -10, upper frequencies boosted a little more) and did some sweeps. A couple sub sweeps and a couple with both L/R main speakers by themselves, DEQ on and DEQ off for both sets of sweeps.

I overlayed the sub with my main speakers in both of these. This one is with DEQ on.

This one is with DEQ off. What am I looking at here? To my untrained eye my main speakers are a real mess!

I'm going to upload the last app file I measured using the app and do the same sweeps. I wanna see what it comes up with. I'm almost positive they'll be quite a bit different. Everything is equal for both files. The only difference is one was taken using the app and the other without. Again, this set of sweeps is based on a curve not measured by the app.

 

[shadyJ]

those responses look fine. In the 'Graph' Button on the top of the REW menu, select "Apply 1/12 Smoothing". That will make your response comprehensible. With no smoothing, every in-room measurement looks like that.

 

[PENG]

those responses look fine. In the 'Graph' Button on the top of the REW menu, select "Apply 1/12 Smoothing". That will make your response comprehensible. With no smoothing, every in-room measurement looks like that.

We have been telling him his bass response is fine so I am glad you agree, but he likes to play with his new $20 toy.