Household electrical problem

[Johnny2Bad]

Thanks everyone for your input . I especially appreciate comments from J2B who seems to be a licensed electrician.

I have not had time to get into this problem this weekend. My son & his fiance are visiting, along with her parents from Connecticut. There is a bridal shower going on today, and, although my son would be a great help to move things, there just isn't time to get at this problem.

My son is getting my old SongTowers. When he said he would love to have them, I gave up trying to sell them. I had transported one of them up to where he lives in NY the other week. Tomorrow the other one goes north with him.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Of a pair of outlets in one junction box, a duplex, one works and the other does not.
To my knowledge neither outlet of this duplex is switched. I do have switched outlets in all the bedrooms of my house, but not the family room.
For what it's worth, I've had my AV gear installed this way since January 2000.

Although I don't think I have rats, I did catch a mouse in the house the other week. I've never seen a field mouse with teeth big enough to bite 14g Romex. There was one and only one mouse. I left traps out for another 3 days, without catching any more.

You need to keep mouse traps active for a minimum of two weeks to be sure you do not have an interior family. Use Peanut Butter as bait, and tweak your spring traps with needle-nose pliers so they have a fast trigger. When you can just barely put them down without triggering them, that's about right.

For the record, I am not an electrician, although I have done a lot of work under the supervision of one. It's OK to do electrical work yourself if you get a licensed electrician sign off of your work, you have to do everything up to code, he has to do "the last mile" connections himself. For example you can string wire and leave the outlets unconnected, he wires the outlets and breakers, and signs off on the permit. Much cheaper that way.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks everyone for your input . I especially appreciate comments from J2B who seems to be a licensed electrician.

I have not had time to get into this problem this weekend. My son & his fiance are visiting, along with her parents from Connecticut. There is a bridal shower going on today, and, although my son would be a great help to move things, there just isn't time to get at this problem.

My son is getting my old SongTowers. When he said he would love to have them, I gave up trying to sell them. I had transported one of them up to where he lives in NY the other week. Tomorrow the other one goes north with him.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Of a pair of outlets in one junction box, a duplex, one works and the other does not.
To my knowledge neither outlet of this duplex is switched. I do have switched outlets in all the bedrooms of my house, but not the family room.
For what it's worth, I've had my AV gear installed this way since January 2000.

Although I don't think I have rats, I did catch a mouse in the house the other week. I've never seen a field mouse with teeth big enough to bite 14g Romex. There was one and only one mouse. I left traps out for another 3 days, without catching any more.

If one receptacle works and the other doesn't, is it possible that a large load may have been connected to the dead one? If you remove the receptacle, look at the strip that connects the two, between the pairs of screws. Some electricians wire outlets in "series", some wire the parallel. Parallel means they attach the wires for a hot, neutral and ground to the outlet, bring the Romex into the box, strip it and with bare ends on the piece that goes down the circuit, they combine all three with wire nuts and do this for the whole line. The result is that no outlet will cause the circuit to go dead after one point. If it's wired "series", they connect the incoming feed to one pair of screws and the outgoing leg connects to the other screws. The result is that the connections on the first outlet have to handle the current from everything after it.

Look at the outlet to make sure the electrician didn't "back-stab" the wires.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Although I don't think I have rats, I did catch a mouse in the house the other week. I've never seen a field mouse with teeth big enough to bite 14g Romex. There was one and only one mouse. I left traps out for another 3 days, without catching any more.

Mice and rats both naw on whatever, like wooden studs and beams, so mice causing electrical problems might be possible, but all of my past experiences or ones that I've heard about have involved rats. It's just an idea, and one I hope isn't correct. Good luck with this (and luck is usually what you need for a solution in cases like these).

As a more humorous aside, one day I came home from work a while back, and noticed little pin holes in the 12/3 cable I use in various custom-made power cords in my system. It was a bit of mystery, until one day I surprised our cat while she was standing next to an outlet chewing on one! Fortunately the cable has several layers of insulation, or I might have walked in on an electrocuted cat. I wiped the cables down with Windex for a few days, and so far as I know the cat still thinks cables smell and taste horrible.

 

[Pogre]

Mice and rats both naw on whatever, like wooden studs and beams, so mice causing electrical problems might be possible, but all of my past experiences or ones that I've heard about have involved rats. It's just an idea, and one I hope isn't correct. Good luck with this (and luck is usually what you need for a solution in cases like these).

As a more humorous aside, one day I came home from work a while back, and noticed little pin holes in the 12/3 cable I use in various custom-made power cords in my system. It was a bit of mystery, until one day I surprised our cat while she was standing next to an outlet chewing on one! Fortunately the cable has several layers of insulation, or I might have walked in on an electrocuted cat. I wiped the cables down with Windex for a few days, and so far as I know the cat still think cables smell and taste horrible.

I had a similar issue with one of my dogs. She's still in her puppy stage at just over a year old. I was having problems with my internet and called Cox to come look at it. My dog had been chewing on the cable going into the house from outside. Cox replaced the cabling for me and I ended up stacking some cinder blocks in front of it as a temporary solution so she can't get to it any more.

 

[KEW]

Mice and rats both naw on whatever, like wooden studs and beams, so mice causing electrical problems might be possible, but all of my past experiences or ones that I've heard about have involved rats. It's just an idea, and one I hope isn't correct. Good luck with this (and luck is usually what you need for a solution in cases like these).

As a more humorous aside, one day I came home from work a while back, and noticed little pin holes in the 12/3 cable I use in various custom-made power cords in my system. It was a bit of mystery, until one day I surprised our cat while she was standing next to an outlet chewing on one! Fortunately the cable has several layers of insulation, or I might have walked in on an electrocuted cat. I wiped the cables down with Windex for a few days, and so far as I know the cat still thinks cables smell and taste horrible.

A couple of decades ago, I came home and my full grown Dalmatian didn't greet me at the door. I called his name and heard a distant whimper, eventually finding him in behind the fridge. I had to pull the fridge out of its nook to let him out.

A couple of days later, I noticed bite marks on the microwave power cord (the MW was on a side stand and plugged into a standard wall outlet).
I still don't know how in the hell he made it around the back corner to get fully behind the fridge - dog's a freak contortionist - who knew?!

 

[annunaki]

Doing some recent remodeling in my own home, I was pulling some wiring out that was no longer needed. I found that field mice had chewed through the romex jacket and had a hot wire (black) clearly visible. Luckily the conductor itself was still jacketed.

I now have plenty of mice/rat poison out at all times in my attic and in my attached garage.


As for your problem. Shut your breaker down. Pull both outlets assuming you are comfortable. Look to check how they are wired. Take pictures if needed. Likely they are linked together and one of the connections failed. Hard to say as every home is a tad different at some level.

 

[Pogre]

A couple of decades ago, I came home and my full grown Dalmatian didn't greet me at the door. I called his name and heard a distant whimper, eventually finding him in behind the fridge. I had to pull the fridge out of its nook to let him out.

A couple of days later, I noticed bite marks on the microwave power cord (the MW was on a side stand and plugged into a standard wall outlet).
I still don't know how in the hell he made it around the back corner to get fully behind the fridge - dog's a freak contortionist - who knew?!

That's a little scary! I'd be giving my pooch a big hug before I told her she was a bad girl. Poor puppy.

 

[slipperybidness]

Before you bring in help to solve this, did this outlet in the family room work before now?
If yes, it is the outlet. If no, then it may be on a switch so a light can be turned on as you enter the room.

Bedrooms are more likely to have one or more switched outlets for a lamp to be plugged into one half of a duplex.

That is a good point! I have this exact setup in my living room HT, where I have a 3 switch panel and 1 of those switches controls one of my HT outlets. Someone has accidentally turned off that switch before, and I had the same "problem".

 

[slipperybidness]

Mice and rats both naw on whatever, like wooden studs and beams, so mice causing electrical problems might be possible, but all of my past experiences or ones that I've heard about have involved rats. It's just an idea, and one I hope isn't correct. Good luck with this (and luck is usually what you need for a solution in cases like these).

As a more humorous aside, one day I came home from work a while back, and noticed little pin holes in the 12/3 cable I use in various custom-made power cords in my system. It was a bit of mystery, until one day I surprised our cat while she was standing next to an outlet chewing on one! Fortunately the cable has several layers of insulation, or I might have walked in on an electrocuted cat. I wiped the cables down with Windex for a few days, and so far as I know the cat still thinks cables smell and taste horrible.

I have a cat that also likes to chew on cables! She typically doesn't get into things to chew, but if there is a cable readily visible, chomp chomp

 

[lovinthehd]

Sort of a sideways thing for this discussion but saw this thing today and wonder if anyone has used it....
http://odditymall.com/walabot-wall-sensor

 

[KEW]

Sort of a sideways thing for this discussion but saw this thing today and wonder if anyone has used it....
http://odditymall.com/walabot-wall-sensor

It looks like a good stud/wire/pipe finder, but while it is a fun idea, I don't see much utility to the rodent detector. Unless you hear a critter in your wall, you are not going to maintain a vigil monitoring your walls. If you hear a critter, you don't need this to tell you he is there.

On second thought, you could use it to find an area clear of pipes and wires and lay in wait for him with a framing nail gun!

 

[panteragstk]

It looks like a good stud/wire/pipe finder, but while it is a fun idea, I don't see much utility to the rodent detector. Unless you hear a critter in your wall, you are not going to maintain a vigil monitoring your walls. If you hear a critter, you don't need this to tell you he is there.

On second thought, you could use it to find an area clear of pipes and wires and lay in wait for him with a framing nail gun!

"What's that smell?" "I dunno" "Why is there a random nail in the wall with dried blood running down?" "I dunno"

 

[Alex2507]

Did you check the dead outlets with a tester or just a regular male plug on a cord. A worn receptacle may not make contact with the prongs on a cord's plug but a tester can poke and prod in directions the plug can't.

It's like radio silence. We need to know what's going on over there.

 

[Midwesthonky]

I think J2B has it nailed or is the most likely situation. My house was wired originally the way he described with the lower plug unit on a switch. The builder really took short cuts and was too cheap to run electrical to the ceilings for lights. So he had the electrician wire it up the way J2B described and on a switch so you could turn lamps on or off. It really limits what you can do for electrical items in the rooms!

You should check to see if you have any light switches that don't seem to do anything. Then stick a lamp in the dead one upstairs and flip the switch to see if anything happens. It's entirely possible someone flipped the switch somewhere and now you don't have power.

Unfortunately, the other scenario is that circuit is now bad. Follow J2B's advice on that.

Good luck!

 

[lovinthehd]

It looks like a good stud/wire/pipe finder, but while it is a fun idea, I don't see much utility to the rodent detector. Unless you hear a critter in your wall, you are not going to maintain a vigil monitoring your walls. If you hear a critter, you don't need this to tell you he is there.

On second thought, you could use it to find an area clear of pipes and wires and lay in wait for him with a framing nail gun!

Yeah, when mice get in the house I usually am aware of it and by ear kinda know where they are in the walls. I found the exterior entry a while back and not an issue after I blocked it.

The $189 price for the finder is kinda steep, but like the detail....

 

[KEW]

"What's that smell?" "I dunno" "Why is there a random nail in the wall with dried blood running down?" "I dunno"

You must be married or something!

 

[Swerd]

Did you check the dead outlets with a tester or just a regular male plug on a cord. A worn receptacle may not make contact with the prongs on a cord's plug but a tester can poke and prod in directions the plug can't.

It's like radio silence. We need to know what's going on over there.

Briefly interrupting radio silence…

I used a night light, and then (once I found it) I used a 3-pronged tester, with the 3 LED lights, to check the dead outlet upstairs. I still cannot get to the downstairs outlet, where I had plugged in the heavy stereo amp.

There has been some progress. I'm embarrassed to say that the outlet upstairs in my bedroom works. Like in my other bedrooms, it was switched, and someone (even though she denies any knowledge of it) had switched it off. The switch is behind the bedroom door (normally left open), and we have left it on for most of the last 23½ years. So, that rules out a connection between the upstairs and downstairs outlets.

I still have not gotten it up to move all the hifi gear, books, records, CDs, and DVDs so I can get to the downstairs outlet. Now that the upstairs outlet is clearly not part of the problem, I'm getting more concerned that the amp is dead.

No more mice. I expected a whole mouse family, but so far only one took the bait on the first night. I've left two mouse traps baited with peanut butter for a total of 5 or 6 nights, but there's been no more mice. I didn't leave mousetraps out last Friday-Sunday because we had house guests – my son, his fiance, and her parents. We were on our best behavior, and I was worn out when they left. These non-lethal traps do work well. No mess to clean up, and you don't have to feed a cat. When I find the door shut in the morning, I do have go for a short walk, a hundred yards or so before I let it go. Then it becomes someone else's problem.

Resuming radio silence … … …

 

[slipperybidness]

@Swerd

You are 100% certain that there is not some similar switch for 1/2 of your HT outlet? Possibly hiding behind a shelf or door? Or (less likely) in some other room?

A good idea is to simply place a piece of tape over the switches that you do not want to get "accidentally" switched to the off position. It won't stop a person determined to flip the switch, but it does serve as a good reminder, "don't turn this switch off".

I would likely try to plug in my amp to a different outlet as the next step for troubleshooting. If you can't easily get to the wall outlet, would it be easier to pull the amp out a foot or so, disconnect the IEC (assuming it has one) connection at the rear of the amp, and plugging in a new cable there just for testing? Or, pull the IEC from a different piece of gear in the rack and temporarily use it on the amp? Otherwise, you may try to run an extension cord to another outlet to troubleshoot only.

 

[Alex2507]

Might be best to have a nice new amp on hand for when the old one comes out ... f^%& sakes, get yourself an hdmi rec'r while you're at it ... and maybe have a sparky run you 3 dedicated 20 ampere lines for the new amplifier and future subwoofer locations. If you have to knock out any walls you know you can count on me for spackling tips.

 

[Swerd]

You are 100% certain that there is not some similar switch for 1/2 of your HT outlet? Possibly hiding behind a shelf or door? Or (less likely) in some other room?

Yes, I'm certain (it's redudent to say 100% certain) that there is no switched outlet in the family room. There is a triple switch plate with two light switches that operate recessed lights in the ceiling, and the third space has a rotary switch for a ceiling fan. There are no other light switches in that room.

When I moved into that house, I bought that outlet tester because there were so many rooms (5) with switched outlets. I used it to test every electrical outlet in the house, and then put it away in the basement. I've rarely used it since – that's why I had trouble finding it.

I would likely try to plug in my amp to a different outlet as the next step for troubleshooting. If you can't easily get to the wall outlet, would it be easier to pull the amp out a foot or so, disconnect the IEC (assuming it has one) connection at the rear of the amp, and plugging in a new cable there just for testing? Or, pull the IEC from a different piece of gear in the rack and temporarily use it on the amp? Otherwise, you may try to run an extension cord to another outlet to troubleshoot only.

That's a good idea, and is just what I plan to do. It does have a removable IEC cord.