Audioholics: please tell me if I’m crazy (for considering a subwoofer purchase)

[Henry Howards]

Henry, one connection you may not have made here is that the S1500 Phil mentions above is essentially identical to the 15S I recommended.

Thanks for that information. I agree with you that there are good reasons to prefer a downward-firing sub, especially if it offers the same quality at a lower price!

Looking at all of the angles, another approach is to buy a Dayton Audio SUB-1200 for $130 and experience/evaluate it over the next months as you are looking for your long-term solution.

That is a brilliant suggestion. It's interesting, because in June 2016, The Wirecutter review site published their article on The Best Budget Subwoofer, and they included the Dayton Audio SUB-1500 in their "shootout". http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-budget-subwoofer/ The Dayton [$175 on Amazon] showed the best test results (though their favorite pick for affordable-price-to-quality-ratio was the 12" Monoprice 9723, currently selling for $108 + shipping). It has just occurred to me that it might be very helpful to buy the Dayton SUB-1500 so that I can hear it at home. It wouldn't be in the same league as the 15" subs that have been recommended in this thread, but I think it could be enlightening to compare it in my room to a pair of smaller subs [such as the RSL Speedwoofer 10s or the Hsu VTF-1 Mk3].

I'm about 45 minutes N of Marietta. Come visit your friends and I'll host you (and your friends if they are interested) to a demonstration!!!

That sounds wonderful -- thanks for the invitation. My friends aren’t nerdy audiophiles like me, but I would enthusiastically welcome the opportunity to be treated to a demo.

Cheers

 

[Henry Howards]

I am in San Jose. You are welcome to come hear my sealed sub and a variety of speakers.

I will be delighted to accept your invitation. I don't have a car, but I could easily hop on CalTrain from San Mateo to San Jose. Probably my earliest chance to do this would be mid-January, after the holidays are over. It is no exaggeration to say that, when I am researching audio equipment for purchase, my pace is glacial, so there isn't any danger that I would rush out to buy a subwoofer before I was able to hear your speakers (!) After I experienced your generous in-home demo maybe you might even consider visiting my little place, where you could see and hear my modest "Home Theater", and get an exact idea of the space I'm working with, here. [I should probably take some pictures and post them in this thread...]

15" sealed IMO is the way to go - they can dig deep enough to get the extension while still sounding clean (mine is a dual 15")
I didn't recommend a 15" right away simply because they cost more and I am not sure it is 100% necessary for your space or what you are saying your goals are at the moment. OF COURSE a 15" would do the trick ideally, but is it the right thing? You'd have to decide that.

I'm a little short for time at the moment, but later this afternoon I look forward to getting back online and discussing subwoofer size, as well as the sealed-versus-ported topic, with all you friendly Bassoholics here.

 

[KEW]

Kurt, I think you are misreading those graphs. It looks like what you are attributing to 'quickness' is simply a function of frequency response vs amplitude. If you are interested in stored energy and overhang, a group delay graph would be more telling. And such a measurement would have to be performed in an anechoic setting or a groundplane outdoor setting.

If you look at the graph, the x-axis is time in milliseconds, the y axis is frequency, and color is used for the SPL. Although a different presentation, those are the exact same 3 dimensions as a "waterfall decay" graph, so you'll have to explain to me how it could ever not indicate timing and overhang.

 

[KEW]

Thanks for that information. I agree with you that there are good reasons to prefer a downward-firing sub, especially if it offers the same quality at a lower price!
That is a brilliant suggestion. It's interesting, because in June 2016, The Wirecutter review site published their article on The Best Budget Subwoofer, and they included the Dayton Audio SUB-1500 in their "shootout". http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-budget-subwoofer/ The Dayton [$175 on Amazon] showed the best test results (though their favorite pick for affordable-price-to-quality-ratio was the 12" Monoprice 9723, currently selling for $108 + shipping). It has just occurred to me that it might be very helpful to buy the Dayton SUB-1500 so that I can hear it at home. It wouldn't be in the same league as the 15" subs that have been recommended in this thread, but I think it could be enlightening to compare it in my room to a pair of smaller subs [such as the RSL Speedwoofer 10s or the Hsu VTF-1 Mk3].
That sounds wonderful -- thanks for the invitation. My friends aren’t nerdy audiophiles like me, but I would enthusiastically welcome the opportunity to be treated to a demo.

Cheers

Your "long game" approach is refreshing! Usually we get guys who are anxious to pull the trigger.

Just PM me when you see a possible trip this way and we'll discuss what to have set up.

I hope the arguments between Shady and I don't cause you any concern. When people are passionate about something, they are willing to invest the time and energy to argue. We have different ideas of what is important in a subwoofer. The positive is it can be thought provoking for both of us as well as for readers.

 

[KEW]

I'd agree the SUB 1500 is a better option as far as getting you closer to the type of sub you are likely to end up with. I suspect the reason The Wirecutter could not get a SUB 1200 to review is that there was a time they were selling as fast as they got them. That is a shame because I would love to see a direct comparison of the Dayton and the Monoprice.

 

[Henry Howards]

I hope the arguments between Shady and I don't cause you any concern. When people are passionate about something, they are willing to invest the time and energy to argue. We have different ideas of what is important in a subwoofer. The positive is it can be thought provoking for both of us as well as for readers.

Not to worry. I'm old enough to know that the gentlemanly sparring on the Audioholics Forum is nothing like the flamethrowing vitriol commonly experienced on other sites (and as you have noted, it is helping to increase my knowledge).

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't know if you've run across it yet, but this is a great site for things bass, best accumulation of third party testing/measurements of subs and some good articles/know how bits as well. http://www.data-bass.com/home

 

[Henry Howards]

That is a shame because I would love to see a direct comparison of the Dayton SUB 1200 and the Monoprice.

The Wirecutter takes an approach in their product evaluations that might be somewhat different from other review sites. Their mission is to choose the "Best Product for the Most People" so, bang-for-the-buck is a primary consideration, along with answering the question "Which of these models will provide a respectable level of satisfaction to the majority of potential buyers?" Had they included the Dayton SUB-1200 in their comparisons they still might have chosen the 12" Monoprice sub, because only 1 out of their 3 judges actually preferred the sound of the Dayton SUB-1500 over the Monoprice, while the other 2 liked the Monprice better, regardless of price or size. I don't know how rigorously they scrutinize these subwoofers with test-bench analysis; their critique may be a bit more subjective.

 

[shadyJ]

If you look at the graph, the x-axis is time in milliseconds, the y axis is frequency, and color is used for the SPL. Although a different presentation, those are the exact same 3 dimensions as a "waterfall decay" graph, so you'll have to explain to me how it could ever not indicate timing and overhang.

The problem is much of what those spectrographs are showing looks to correspond directly to frequency response rather then the type of behavior you are looking for. I examined them, and I thought that the chart showing the LV12r's spectrograph might actually have been the exception, but when I looked at it closer I noticed the color scale was different. The manual for the XTZ Room Analyzer, the system that was used to generate those graphs, states: "An uneven color spectrum suggests an uneven frequency response in the room." The subwoofers with flat bass to deep frequencies all have that drawn out energy, but how much of that is the room vs ringing from the subwoofer itself? Keep in mind the wavelengths of those cycles are larger than the room dimensions, assuming those measurements weren't taken in a large indoor stadium.

Remember the actual audibility of group delay; the lowest threshold for the audibility of group delay in bass frequencies I have ever heard about was 20 ms. There isn't a lot of research on this subject, but it is generally thought that group delay will be related to the cycle length of the individual frequencies, which is why group delay charts are typically shown the way they are. By the way, group delay graphs would be better for looking at the kind of behavior you are looking for. There the measured stored energy is separated from the frequency response, whereas in the spectrograms you are looking at, the separation is not as clear.

And also remember that, in room, a flat response at listening position will not have the kind of ringing you are ascribing to these subwoofers. This has been consistently demonstrated: Toole, DellaSala, Toole again, and Mellor. So get a flat response, and these slight differences in group delay will not matter. Furthermore, the original poster expressed an interest in deep frequency Pipe Organ music, and it may be that an elevated response in the 16 Hz to 30 Hz band may be preferred here. That would strengthen the sound of the fundamental, and the excess delay in such a low frequency isn't likely to matter so much.

 

[shadyJ]

The Wirecutter takes an approach in their product evaluations that might be somewhat different from other review sites. Their mission is to choose the "Best Product for the Most People" so, bang-for-the-buck is a primary consideration, along with answering the question "Which of these models will provide a respectable level of satisfaction to the majority of potential buyers?" Had they included the Dayton SUB-1200 in their comparisons they still might have chosen the 12" Monoprice sub, because only 1 out of their 3 judges actually preferred the sound of the Dayton SUB-1500 over the Monoprice, while the other 2 liked the Monprice better, regardless of price or size. I don't know how rigorously they scrutinize these subwoofers with test-bench analysis; their critique may be a bit more subjective.

Some things to keep in mind about that comparison: frequency response can dramatically shift the sound of a subwoofer from simply moving a few feet in room. What one person heard in one seat isn't going to have the same sound as someone in the next seat for the same subwoofer. The room's acoustic response to low frequencies will determine the sound of the subwoofer far more than its raw response (assuming the raw response is not way out of whack).

Also, aural memory decay rather quickly; 3 to 4 seconds! In order to overcome the limits of aural memory, the sound must be quickly switched back and forth between speakers or subs, at least to gauge anything more than very broad sound characteristics.

I would love to conduct a rigorous blind test one day: it would take place outdoors, in a low noise floor area, with a speaker switching system setup for quick level-matched channel swapping.

 

[shadyJ]

I am intrigued by the "hybrid" subwoofers, like the Hsu VTF series, because [from my perspective as a novice] they would seem to offer the best of both worlds. When you wanted to listen to music, you could opt for greater accuracy and slightly less deep-bass reach by sealing both ports, yet when you wanted to enjoy more powerful LFE while watching a movie, you could choose to open one or two ports, and give up some finer resolution in exchange for brawn. Here is what I am wondering: in practical use, do the hybrid subs merely approximate the qualities of a true, sealed design? If that is the case, I can certainly appreciate why some folks would have a strong preference for sealed subs. I have also noticed that many of the sealed subs have smaller enclosures [relative to the size of the driver] and that might be an attractive feature, as well, especially when floor space is at a premium.

Making an airtight seal on any ported subwoofer turns it into a sealed subwoofer. The Hsu VTF subs do not approximate the qualities of a sealed design in the sealed operating mode; they are a sealed subwoofer. The back side of the driver vibrates the air inside of the enclosure, and this resonates the air inside of the ports. The resonating air in the ports creates additional soundwaves in low frequencies; this resonance is called Helmholtz resonance and is the same thing that happens where you hear a note when blowing over the top of an open bottle or jug. The thing about the resonance is it's sound wave is 1 cycle off from the driver's motion (at least if the ported subwoofer is built correctly). Some people think they can hear so well that this cycle difference is audible (extremely unlikely in deep bass). By sealing the port, you eliminate the port resonance, and the driver is on its own to reproduce all of the sound.

 

[Henry Howards]

The problem is much of what those spectrographs are showing looks to correspond directly to frequency response rather then the type of behavior you are looking for. I examined them, and I thought that the chart showing the LV12r's spectrograph might actually have been the exception, but when I looked at it closer I noticed the color scale was different. The manual for the XTZ Room Analyzer, the system that was used to generate those graphs, states: "An uneven color spectrum suggests an uneven frequency response in the room." The subwoofers with flat bass to deep frequencies all have that drawn out energy, but how much of that is the room vs ringing from the subwoofer itself? Keep in mind the wavelengths of those cycles are larger than the room dimensions, assuming those measurements weren't taken in a large indoor stadium.

Remember the actual audibility of group delay; the lowest threshold for the audibility of group delay in bass frequencies I have ever heard about was 20 ms. There isn't a lot of research on this subject, but it is generally thought that group delay will be related to the cycle length of the individual frequencies, which is why group delay charts are typically shown the way they are. By the way, group delay graphs would be better for looking at the kind of behavior you are looking for. There the measured stored energy is separated from the frequency response, whereas in the spectrograms you are looking at, the separation is not as clear.

And also remember that, in room, a flat response at listening position will not have the kind of ringing you are ascribing to these subwoofers. This has been consistently demonstrated: Toole, DellaSala, Toole again, and Mellor. So get a flat response, and these slight differences in group delay will not matter. Furthermore, the original poster expressed an interest in deep frequency Pipe Organ music, and it may be that an elevated response in the 16 Hz to 30 Hz band may be preferred here. That would strengthen the sound of the fundamental, and the excess delay in such a low frequency isn't likely to matter so much.

At this stage I am still just a dog paddler, and I'm probably not yet ready for the Adult Swim session in the Subwoofer Pool, but I confess that when I look at most of the charts mapped in 3D showing the test results for subs under review by Audioholics, I am mystified. Is there a site that might offer a simple tutorial for a novice who is trying to decode the essential information that these charts display? (If not, that's perfectly okay, I don't mind being in a little over-my-head. I know I'll come up for air eventually...)

 

[shadyJ]

At this stage I am still just a dog paddler, and I'm probably not yet ready for the Adult Swim session in the Subwoofer Pool, but I confess that when I look at most of the charts mapped in 3D showing the test results for subs under review by Audioholics, I am mystified. Is there a site that might offer a simple tutorial for a novice who is trying to decode the essential information that these charts display? If not, that's perfectly okay, I don't mind being in a little over-my-head. I know I'll come up for air eventually...)

Since I wrote those reviews and created those graphs, I am probably the best person to ask about the meaning of that data. For a few of them, there isn't really a better explanation elsewhere of the meaning since those reviews are the first time that kind of data has been presented. I tried to explain what they mean in the reviews without getting too deep (for fear of bogging down the review), but maybe a separate article that more fully explains their significance would be a good idea. Anyway, let me know which ones you want a better explanation of, and I will try to help.

 

[Henry Howards]

Some things to keep in mind about that comparison: frequency response can dramatically shift the sound of a subwoofer from simply moving a few feet in room. What one person heard in one seat isn't going to have the same sound as someone in the next seat for the same subwoofer. The room's acoustic response to low frequencies will determine the sound of the subwoofer far more than its raw response (assuming the raw response is not way out of whack).

Also, aural memory decay rather quickly; 3 to 4 seconds! In order to overcome the limits of aural memory, the sound must be quickly switched back and forth between speakers or subs, at least to gauge anything more than very broad sound characteristics.

I would love to conduct a rigorous blind test one day: it would take place outdoors, in a low noise floor area, with a speaker switching system setup for quick level-matched channel swapping.

Your observations are absolutely on the mark. I take the Wirecutter's reviews with a grain of salt. I do believe they try to be as fair as possible, but it's hard to know with much certainty what methods they use and how they arrive at their conclusions. I also realize that the qualities they judge as most important in a product are not necessarily the same parameters that matter to me.

I hope you invite me along for your blind test of loudspeakers! It sounds like it will be a fine adventure.

 

[3db]

That has not been my experience. I think it is likely that a musically "tight" ported sub can be made, but I have yet to see one that rivals the quickness of the better sealed subs.

Here is an impulse response spectrogram for the sealed Rythmik E15HP:

Refer to the color scale immediately right of the graph. Look at how tight the red (90dB) clings to the 0ms axis.

Here is the PSA XS15se (pretty darn close to the Rythmik and my ears don't hear the difference!):

Here is the ported (technically passive radiator, but close enough) Salk/Rythmik subwoofer. Fortunately Jim did not combine the two signals from the driver and the port (he was new to the measurement software at the time) so we can see more of what is happening.
For the driver, we see not too different from the behavior of the sealed Rythmik E15HP (which probably has the same driver) above except for some nastiness at around 25Hz:

And when we look at the port, it is apparent that the nastiness comes from port resonance effecting the driver:

Let's look at Rythmik's ported LV12r. Again, the driver and the port are separate charts.
Here is the driver. Not quite as tight as the E15HP. I would assume this is more driver than port as I don't believe the servo system is really depending on acoustic suspension from the cabinet. And again, there is some bloom in the 20-25Hz region:

...and again, we see it comes from the port:

So, both the sealed subs above (which are the best I have heard) are "out of the orange" (i.e. 15dB down from the pulse level) in under 10 milliseconds, it takes the ported Salk/Rythmik >100ms to do the same and the ported Rythmik ~70ms!
Enough picking on Rythmik's ported subs.

Here is the SVS SB1000 followed by the PB1000:

Here we see the SB1000 is "out of the orange" at about 20ms and the ported takes about twice as long.
However, it is not natural for a sealed sub to have such a response. It is obviously a compromise SVS made to appeal to the "Wow, listen to my sub!" crowd. They are fighting physics to get as much deep end as they can out of that 12" driver in a 14" cube! That is a marketing decision and apparently a good one because SVS is probably doing as good as, or better than any of the ID companies. Understandably, the idea of buying a sub that disappears and doesn't call attention to itself is not the first thought people have when spending $500 to $1000 on a sub; they want to be impressed and want to impress others with strong deep bass. I can sympathize - I run my subs 6 to 8dB hotter for HT adventure movies because it is fun feeling the impacts! However, I cannot do this for music without ruining the experience, YMMV.

Since I'm throwing up charts here is the JLAudio E112. It shares a lot with the SB1000!

And here is the SUB 1200 I recommend as an inexpensive "get acquainted" option (split driver & port charts):

So, we see that the SUB 1200 is faster than the PB1000, the Salk/Rythmik, The LV12r; and not too far behind the SB1000 and E112.

Impulse response is not the only measurement of concern, but it seems to be the one that I butt heads with most among the forum recommended subs!

Thanks for the analysis and other than a pipe organ, I know of no musical instrument that can go down to 20 Hz where you're focusing all your energy.

 

[Henry Howards]

Since I wrote those reviews and created those graphs, I am probably the best person to ask about the meaning of that data. For a few of them, there isn't really a better explanation elsewhere of the meaning since those reviews are the first time that kind of data has been presented. I tried to explain what they mean in the reviews without getting too deep (for fear of bogging down the review), but maybe a separate article that more fully explains their significance would be a good idea. Anyway, let me know which ones you want a better explanation of, and I will try to help.

Sometimes when I encounter a new way of presenting test results, I just need to step away for a while, or ease my gaze, and when I return for another look, I have better comprehension. Your graphs are starting to come into clearer focus for me. And believe me, the explanations you have provided in the reviews for how the graphs are generated, and what they signify, are entirely cogent. You can also be sure that your descriptions are helpful, while still preserving the flow of the review. (So you probably won't need to start working on a separate article...) I also notice that you follow up the charts with a non-technical summation that is easy to comprehend (in other words, "This subwoofer is performing well, in these tests"). To tell you the truth, I don't know how this could be accomplished better than the way you have already done it. Thanks for your expertise. It is one of the many things that makes Audioholics an exemplary site.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for the analysis and other than a pipe organ, I know of no musical instrument that can go down to 20 Hz where you're focusing all your energy.

Synthesizers are musical instruments too!

 

[Henry Howards]

Your "long game" approach is refreshing! Usually we get guys who are anxious to pull the trigger.

Thanks for that validation. You know, hunting for a high-quality Home Theater component can feel a little like a romantic pursuit: you keep looking until you find the one that's just right for you (and the search can be almost as pleasurable as the acquisition). In my case, it also isn't unusual for the match to be "until death do us part", because when I find a piece of equipment I really like, I tend to keep using it until it gives up the ghost.

Just PM me when you see a possible trip this way and we'll discuss what to have set up.

Will do (though a coast-to-coast flight is, unfortunately, not in my budget for the near future, so don't set out the good china on my account, just yet). To tell you the truth, I would benefit from hosting a visitor -- it would motivate me to undertake some neglected housecleaning...
Cheers

 

[shadyJ]

The SB16 is no doubt a amazing subwoofer, but keep in mind, it is 122 lbs packed in a 20" cube. That is not an easy load to handle, even for two people, especially since there isn't an easy handle or grip on its gloss black surface. But if you have friends who can help you move it, it would be a killer sub for sure.

 

[3db]

Synthesizers are musical instruments too!

Yes they are and other than rap or hip hop which I consider to be nothing but noise, I stand by what I said before that there is no musical content at 20 Hz. I will also add the albums mentioned above UT that is rare. At that frequency it's more felt than heard. All this non sense of port noise becomes moot.