Audioholics: please tell me if I’m crazy (for considering a subwoofer purchase)

[Henry Howards]

No need, quite familiar with them....may even build one some day. Good way to go for smaller footprints in some cases. This guy makes some of the finest cylindrical subs I know of http://bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/Home.html

What a great link! I will definitely research those models. Thanks!

 

[Henry Howards]

A Forum Member has asked me to provide a full outline of my home statistics and my needs/desires that would factor-in to choosing a subwoofer. (Sorry that this information has gotten so scattered all through this thread). Here are the answers:

1. The house is a stand-alone studio cottage - subwoofers won't disturb neighbors
2. Total interior dimensions (including bathroom and walk-in closet) 17' x 20' -- 340 sq ft
3. Main Room dimensions (Open Kitchen + Living Room) 14' x 17' with NO partition
4. A 4' x 6' Open Alcove at one end of the Main Room
5. Bathroom and Closet are accessed through 30" x 80" pocket doors on two sides of this Alcove. Both doors are kept open
6. Main Room has symmetrically vaulted ceiling, 9' high at side walls, 12' high at center
7. Estimated total volume of cottage: 3500 cbft.
8. Estimated volume of Main Room + Alcove: 2815 cbft.
9. Interested in 2 subs 60" apart, at right and left sides of TV, or 1 sub at back of room
10. Front Speakers are Paradigm Active 40s
11. Frequency response of Paradigm speakers: ±1dB 36Hz-20kHz
12. Front Speakers have excellent bass, and I want a good blend with the subs

13. I may want to place my subwoofers on a 600-lb capacity 17" x 17" platform dolly, to make them easier to maneuver:

14. Maximum width of Subs: 18"
15. Maximum height of Subs: 24"
16. Subs can be Ported or Sealed
17. Listening Distance from Subs, for Music: 6' to 8'
18. Listening Distance from Subs, for Movies: 4' to 6' (When I'm alone, I watch my 51" Plasma TV from just beyond the distance where "screen door effect" can be seen. Guests usually prefer more distant seating)
19. Music listening is my primary interest, Home Theater listening is secondary (I don't need or care much about loud LFE)
Listening preferences:
20. MOSTLY Classical Music / Symphonic / Opera / Pipe Organ (it would be great if I had a sub that could reproduce an organ pedal note down to 16 Hz)
21. Some 1940s-style Big Band Music & vintage vocalists [Sinatra, Streisand, etc.]
22. Some classic Country Western [Dwight Yokum, Emmylou Harris, etc.]
23. Some Beatles, 1950s Rock
24. NO contemporary pop music [no Hip-Hop, Rap, Techno, Rock, etc.]
25. I don't have an A/V Receiver. Instead, I have an Integra DTC-9.8 Pre/Pro (because of my Active Loudspeakers). The Pre/Pro has an earlier version of Audyssey
26. I'm interested in recommendations of subs costing from $400 each to $1000 each ($2000 total maximum price for 2 subs)
27. I'm focused on high-quality musical fidelity. If the sub is great for music, it will be plenty good enough for my Home Theater needs.

Here are some subwoofer models that have been suggested to me (in no order of price or preference):

Rythmik L22
Hsu VTF-3 MK5 HP
Hsu VTF-2 MK5
Hsu VTF-1 MK3
Hsu ULS-15 MK2
RSL Speedwoofer 10s
SVS PC-2000
SVS SB-2000
Power Sound Audio 15S [downward firing driver]
Power Sound Audio S1500 [front firing driver]
Dayton SUB-1200
Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12

Let me know if you'd like any more information. Thanks for all the help from the fine Bassoholics on this Subwoofer Forum!

 

[shadyJ]

The VTF-3s would be extreme overkill, and you do not need that much power at all. Therefore I would go for the VTF-3s. It would be the most powerful in that list by far. The ability to switch to sealed is just icing on the cake. The driver it uses is impressive as hell for the price. A couple more in this category would be the Rythmik LVX12 and EMP I-12/e. The I-12/e also supports a sealed configuration. They would be good options also.

By the way, one nice thing I should mention about using the subs as speaker stands is that you can raise the crossover as high as the sub will let you and not suffer any localization penalties. Most systems only have one sub for which it is recommended to use only 80 Hz as a crossover point since frequencies above that become directional, and the subs begins to draw attention to its position. Obviously this is bad for a lot of reasons. But using two that are located in the same spot as your speakers can let you take advantage of the subwoofer's upper bass power without weighing the soundstage in one direction or another. The subs will be far more capable in this range than your speakers. I would experiment with different crossover points and see what sounds best to you. Try 100 Hz, 120 Hz, and 150 Hz.

 

[Muzykant]

By the way, one nice thing I should mention about using the subs as speaker stands is that you can raise the crossover as high as the sub will let you and not suffer any localization penalties. Most systems only have one sub for which it is recommended to use only 80 Hz as a crossover point since frequencies above that become directional, and the subs begins to draw attention to its position. Obviously this is bad for a lot of reasons. But using two that are located in the same spot as your speakers can let you take advantage of the subwoofer's upper bass power without weighing the soundstage in one direction or another. The subs will be far more capable in this range than your speakers. I would experiment with different crossover points and see what sounds best to you. Try 100 Hz, 120 Hz, and 150 Hz.

James, I was thinking about doing that a few months ago. I own SVS Prime Towers and they are not tall enough for the tweeters to be at ear level the way I usually sit. I wanted to place them on top of my SVS SB-2000 subs to raise the tweeters and mitigate any localization issues (not that I noticed any before). However, after I did so I noticed the towers' tops began to noticeably vibrate to bass sounds even at low to moderate volume levels.

How do you think such vibrations would affect the sound from the mains?

 

[lovinthehd]

James, I was thinking about doing that a few months ago. I own SVS Prime Towers and they are not tall enough for the tweeters to be at ear level the way I usually sit. I wanted to place them on top of my SVS SB-2000 subs to raise the tweeters and mitigate any localization issues (not that I noticed any before). However, after I did so I noticed the towers' tops began to noticeably vibrate to bass sounds even at low to moderate volume levels.

How do you think such vibrations would affect the sound from the mains?

Wouldn't it be easier to isolate the speaker from the sub with the use of a rubber mat or similar? Or is this another type of resonance you're noting?

 

[Muzykant]

Wouldn't it be easier to isolate the speaker from the sub with the use of a rubber mat or similar? Or is this another type of resonance you're noting?

The speakers shook back and forth sympathetic to some low frequencies subwoofers were emitting. I didn't try rubber mats or any other resonance-damping material. When I first purchased my SB-2000 subs I noticed they were too light for their power and were vibrating while in use. I ended up placing 15 lbs weights on top of each and it helped. Perhaps it's really a sub issue and is not related to placing speakers on top of subwoofers in general.

 

[shadyJ]

James, I was thinking about doing that a few months ago. I own SVS Prime Towers and they are not tall enough for the tweeters to be at ear level the way I usually sit. I wanted to place them on top of my SVS SB-2000 subs to raise the tweeters and mitigate any localization issues (not that I noticed any before). However, after I did so I noticed the towers' tops began to noticeably vibrate to bass sounds even at low to moderate volume levels.

How do you think such vibrations would affect the sound from the mains?

If the entire speaker is vibrating, it might not really affect the sound, or it might. I am not sure. The vibration that is most troublesome is panel resonance on the speakers, not the whole speakers themselves. I could only guess that the type of vibration you are seeing wouldn't affect the sound, but you really have to determine that for yourself since you are experiencing the phenomena, with your ears and with measurements.

 

[Muzykant]

If the entire speaker is vibrating, it might not really affect the sound, or it might. I am not sure. The vibration that is most troublesome is panel resonance on the speakers, not the whole speakers themselves. I could only guess that the type of vibration you are seeing wouldn't affect the sound, but you really have to determine that for yourself since you are experiencing the phenomena, with your ears and with measurements.

My apologies for hijacking the thread. I just tried the following: I took a musical instrument digital tuner, set it to sound a 440hz tone and rapidly shook my hand with an amplitude of one inch or so. Normally pure sound became jittery. While my speakers never approached one inch amplitude, I wonder if similar effect was still present to a lesser degree.

 

[Henry Howards]

My apologies for hijacking the thread.

I'm actually glad that you brought this point up for discussion here, because if I buy dual subwoofers, I may need to place my front loudspeakers on top of the subs in order to conserve space in my little house. I will try researching this subject on the Internet to see if I can find any articles that address this issue. Most of what I'm encountering on this topic are forum discussions, which are anecdotal responses that have no objective evidence to back them up (the majority on the forums think it's okay, but how do they know?). It would be great to see some actual test measurements that might reveal whether there are actual problems caused by a subwoofer interfering with the performance of a speaker stacked on top. There is a part of me that worries it might not be the best arrangement, but then, there are quite a few tower speaker designs with large subwoofers included underneath the midrange drivers and tweeters, so perhaps it isn't a problem. I think I would definitely put rubber-grip liners in between the top of the subs and the bottom of the speakers. If you wanted to make this stacked arrangement especially stable, I imagine you could devise a way to strap the speakers to the subs, so they would function like a single integrated unit. But as I said, I really don't know enough to tell you if this would be helpful or detrimental (or even whether big subwoofers should be incorporated by manufacturers into their full-range tower speakers, at all. Hmm... )

 

[Muzykant]

I'm actually glad that you brought this point up for discussion here, because if I buy dual subwoofers, I may need to place my front loudspeakers on top of the subs in order to conserve space in my little house. I will try researching this topic on the Internet to see if I can find any articles that address this issue. There is a part of me that worries it might not be the best arrangement, but then, there are quite a few tower speaker designs with large subwoofers included underneath the midrange drivers and tweeters, so perhaps it isn't a problem. I think I would definitely put rubber-grip liners in between the top of the subs and the bottom of the speakers. If you wanted to make this stacked arrangement especially stable, I imagine you could devise a way to strap the speakers to the subs, so they would function like a single integrated unit. But as I said, I really don't know enough to tell you if this would be helpful or detrimental (or even whether big subwoofers should be incorporated by manufacturers into their full-range tower speakers, at all. Hmm... )

I think there is a way to diminish this effect if it's not specific to my speaker/sub combination. See, I never removed the bumper feet from either speakers or subwoofers. I think placing them both flat on large pieces of rubber or yoga mats would decrease the shaking.

 

[Henry Howards]

I think there is a way to diminish this effect if it's not specific to my speaker/sub combination. See, I never removed the bumper feet from either speakers or subwoofers. I think placing them both flat on large pieces of rubber or yoga mats would decrease the shaking.

I have a hunch that the bumpers on your subwoofers are there for a good reason, and it might be better to keep them on. If you remove the bumper feet from your subs, you may want to place subwoofer isolation pads between the floor and the sub. These are specially designed to decrease resonances between your house structure and your sub. Supposedly, it is better if your sub isn't sending vibrations through the floor, but then again, I don't know whether this is valid or not. (Sometimes I have the suspicion that fake problems are invented merely to sell products...)

 

[Henry Howards]

I came across this article recommending the use of 3 subwoofers in a room. I found it intriguing, even though I probably can't afford 3 subs..!
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

 

[shadyJ]

I came across this article recommending the use of 3 subwoofers in a room. I found it intriguing, even though I probably can't afford 3 subs..!
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

I really like the Geddes approach to a multiple sub system, and I think it even makes a bit more sense than the Harman approach, which is also very good. By the way, the system you are contemplating, using subs as speaker stands, is definitely NOT the Geddes recommended guide to placement. Geddes basically says to place the speakers asymmetrically over the room. This should energize many different room modes and, through statistical probability of random distribution, you will end up with a flatter response.

Since your speakers are symmetrically placed, so will the subs be with your intended placement of them. This probably won't get you a perfectly flat response, but it still might work well. As always, the only way to be sure is to measure the response.

 

[ATLAudio]

I generally do not recommend the usage of subs for speaker stands. This harkens to subwoofer/speaker tower combinations which I also dread. Domestically attractive, but potentially a sonic disaster. Almost always the best place for your stereo speakers isn't the best for your subs. More times than not subwoofers have a far more optimal location for placement, and often enough as well, the speaker's placement are not just sub-optimal for subs, but terrible.

Resonances from the sub into the speaker cabinet can be controlled but hard to predict, but it's also easily avoided by simply not doing this.

Other suggested "perks," such as going with a high crossover due to localization being less of a concern comes with its own slate of issues. For my tastes, I've yet to hear a sub set up that performs better when crossed at 100-120 vs 80 hz when paired with good towers or strong monitors like what the OP has. Another issue is when listening to home theater, that being male voices having an over pronounced chesty impact on words that begin with "Puh, or Buh."

 

[Henry Howards]

Sorry I didn't post a diagram like this earlier in the thread -- it would have made it much easier to visualize the layout of my studio.

This diagram isn't really to proportionate scale, but it will give you a rough idea of how the A/V components are set up in my room. There is no partition or division between my Kitchen and my "Living Room". It is all one open space. The 4 trapezoid shapes in the diagram are my 4 Paradigm loudspeakers. As you can tell, my speakers are all in symmetrical relationship to my TV, but in relation to the whole room, their placement is asymmetrical. I haven't bought any subwoofers yet, though if I buy dual subwoofers and place them to the right and left of my TV, the subwoofers will also be asymmetrically positioned within the room. The sub at the front right position can even be moved deeper into the corner, to break up the symmetry even further. I actually have enough space for a 3rd subwoofer [represented by the unlabeled square at the bottom of the diagram] which I could place at the back wall, in between my rear loudspeakers. Essentially, this would result in an arrangement that is a fairly close approximation of the positioning that Geddes recommends:

"Put one sub in a corner close to the mains. The second sub is a lot more flexible as to its location, but it should not be in a corner. Side wall or back wall, near the midpoint is a good idea. Put the third sub wherever you can that is not too close to the other two. It's a good idea to get one of them off of the floor."

I don't know if my tightwad tendencies would permit me to splurge on the purchase of 3 subwoofers, but it is a tempting proposition, I admit...

 

[Henry Howards]

I generally do not recommend the usage of subs for speaker stands. This harkens to subwoofer/speaker tower combinations which I also dread. Domestically attractive, but potentially a sonic disaster. Almost always the best place for your stereo speakers isn't the best for your subs. More times than not subwoofers have a far more optimal location for placement, and often enough as well, the speaker's placement are not just sub-optimal for subs, but terrible.
Resonances from the sub into the speaker cabinet can be controlled but hard to predict, but it's also easily avoided by simply not doing this.
Other suggested "perks," such as going with a high crossover due to localization being less of a concern comes with its own slate of issues. For my tastes, I've yet to hear a sub set up that performs better when crossed at 100-120 vs 80 hz when paired with good towers or strong monitors like what the OP has. Another issue is when listening to home theater, that being male voices having an over pronounced chesty impact on words that begin with "Puh, or Buh."

I have the same misgivings as you that stacking loudspeakers on top of subs is probably not wise, and your advice has persuaded me not to attempt it, for all the reasons you cite. I agree with you as well about using a lower crossover point with the sub, especially if your loudspeakers are able to produce articulate upper bass.

 

[shadyJ]

It looks like you can do something akin to the Geddes approach. The thing about taking subwoofers and bass response to this level is that it could be a lot of effort for low returns if you do not know what the frequency response is. I would encourage you to get a measurement microphone and measure the response; that will help you see what going on, and it will help you dial-in the subwoofers. Otherwise you are merely operating on guesswork and assumptions.

 

[ATLAudio]

A higher crossover is a non starter for me on HT, but with music it might work with electronic, techno, rap, or bassy music; which I seldom listen to.

To me, good towers or monitors' woofers articulate bass nuance better. Bass guitars have a better growl

That right corner would be where I put a sub, run Audyssey and you should be fine. If you sense anything is missing you can run measurements and such, but you shouldn't feel that this is necessary.

 

[Henry Howards]

It looks like you can do something akin to the Geddes approach. The thing about taking subwoofers and bass response to this level is that it could be a lot of effort for low returns if you do not know what the frequency response is. I would encourage you to get a measurement microphone and measure the response; that will help you see what going on, and it will help you dial-in the subwoofers. Otherwise you are merely operating on guesswork and assumptions.

Could you point me in the direction of the type of measurement microphone that you have suggested? Do you know of any online tutorials where I could learn the best way to calibrate subwoofer(s) using one of these microphones? Many thanks.

 

[Henry Howards]

That right corner would be where I put a sub, run Audyssey and you should be fine. If you sense anything is missing you can run measurements and such, but you shouldn't feel that this is necessary.

The simplicity of this approach definitely appeals to me. I'm sorry to admit it, but I am easily confused by complex adjustment procedures. I did notice that the SVS site also recommends a corner placement as probably the best spot when using a single sub, because it is likely to produce more complex room modes and smoother bass sound throughout the listening area. If I am fortunate, this will prove true in my situation. I'm curious: are there subwoofer companies that offer a discount on a trade-in for an upgrade? For instance, if I were to start out with a PSA S1500 would I later be able to receive a discount from PSA for a trade-in on a higher priced model? I am also wondering about the subwoofer isolation pads I have seen, which are meant to prevent your floor from resonating with the subwoofer. (I have a hunch they are probably unnecessary, because I don't see them being sold by the companies that actually make subwoofers...) Thanks for your help!