Audioholics: please tell me if I’m crazy (for considering a subwoofer purchase)

[KEW]

This article best reflects my experience on the topic:
http://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety.com/audiophile-wisdom-ported-vs-non-ported-subs/

I am a proponent of sealed subs, but you are wise to want the ability to tune it as a hedge.
I have had experiences with SVS sealed subs where they were too aggressive with the quest get a flat response to the low 20's out of a " sub (in an anechoic chamber). That did not sound good. Ed at SVS thought it was ringing from the way this sub had been EQ'ed when I described it to him. This was the SB12-plus that predates the SB1000 and the SB2000, so they may have addressed that in there current sealed subs.

There may be some ported subs that will sound good. I haven't heard them, but, OTOH, the "best" ported subs I have heard were dual SVS PC-12 Plus's ($1200 ea) and while they had great power down low which was fun for HT, you could never call them clean and articulate.

If I was in your position, I would buy a Power Sound Audio 15S. I have the PSA XS15se which predates the 15S (he switched to the ICE amp to add more power and greater reliability) It has a "Room Size" knob designed to compensate for excessive room gain. This is a continuously variable knob which applies a downward slope to the lower frequencies for up to 8dB reduction at 20Hz.
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/subwoofers/products/15s

I think the Hsu ULS-15 is also a good option, but I am not too quick to recommend a product I have not heard. It has the Q control plus a choice of EQ1 vs EQ2. Looking at the AH review, it looks like the discreet EQ1 vs EQ2 settings are a sledge hammer (huge 14dB at 20Hz difference between them, which makes sense since it ias to convert the sub to a mid-bass driver) and the Q control is a control that is too fine (max adjustment of 4dB at 20Hz) to really bridge between the two EQ settings. Nonetheless, it is probably the best option after the 15S.

Other differences that may affect the choice between these two are.
Hsu costs $860 after shipping (or $810 after shipping if you get it during their current Holiday sale)
PSA costs $900 (includes shipping).
15S made in USA (even the ICE amp!).
PSA has 5 year warranty on everything.
Hsu is 2 years for amp and 7 years for driver.
I'll give a slight nod to Tom V at PSA because he is anxious to help and usually greets me via chat-line every time I visit his website. But honestly, Hsu's customer service is so good that you would never miss that. Both understand the importance of excellent customer service to their success as an ID company.

 

[Diesel57]

Henry the knowledge given & provided here has no boundaries and gives visions beyond ones thoughts with audio. I've visited and been in a lot of forums but the support here is a over achiever and it's given with genuine concern while being courted with compassion for one's interest which has positioned me to help and assist others...Cheers

PS...WELCOME, YOU HAVE 2 HOMES WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY FOR THE 2nd one...

 

[Henry Howards]

Can subwoofers be elevated on a stand, or have manufacturers designed them to function optimally only when they are placed on the floor? I'm asking this question because it would provide me with more placement options in my small room. I have a wide open spot on top of a very stable credenza at the center back of the room. There is also an empty corner to the right of my TV at the front of the room. I realize that a single subwoofer placed in an off-center corner would be far from ideal (for several reasons) but if the sub were raised on a really stable stand, would it help to mitigate some of the typical problems caused by placing a subwoofer in a corner? I wouldn't try this with a massive sub, but given my budget and space limitations, it's most likely that I won't by buying a model that's huge. Thanks again for the help.

 

[shadyJ]

You generally want to place the subwoofer on the floor. The reason is acoustic reflections off of the floor can cause interference with direct sound from the sub at your listening position. This is called the Allison Effect.

 

[Henry Howards]

Henry, the knowledge provided here has no boundaries and the support is given with genuine concern while being courted with compassion for one's interest... Cheers

I agree, and this is what I have experienced for myself on the Audioholics site.

 

[Henry Howards]

You generally want to place the subwoofer on the floor. The reason is acoustic reflections off of the floor can cause interference with direct sound from the sub at your listening position. This is called the Allison Effect.

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. I may still experiment with elevating the sub, if only just to hear what my ears are telling me about this less customary placement in my room.

 

[Diesel57]

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. I may still experiment with elevating the sub, if only just to hear what my ears are telling me about this less customary placement in my room.

Only you know the comfort of what you hear.

 

[Henry Howards]

I never heard of the Hsu subs until coming to this site.

I'm just beginning to discover the breadth and depth of information resources on the topic of subwoofers, and the variety of models that are available. I am likely to be researching this for quite a while, and ultimately I may find myself buying a different model than the Hsu. Several folks on this thread have expressed their preference for a sealed sub like those made by SVS, so I think you can still feel confident that you made a good purchase.

 

[KEW]

I am likely to be researching this for quite a while, and ultimately I may find myself buying a different model than the Hsu.

Usually, I try to keep it simple to avoid analysis paralysis, but since you said you enjoy the process of deciding, I'll give you more to think about.

For the greatest flexibility, the Rythmik F15HP or the Rythmik E15HP is probably the best bet, but either will cost ~$1280.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html

Here is a comparison of the E15HP to the $1600 SVS SB13 Ultra (scroll down to JimWilson's post of 03-29-2014, 10:19 AM):
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1471574-rythmik-e15-vs-svs-sb13-ultra-4.html

I have both dual E15HP's and the PSA's. In my room (and to my ear), the PSA is every bit the equal of the Rythmik for music! The Rythmik does a better job for LFE, but if you haven't had a sub, the PSA will be so good that you'll have no complaints...it is a 15" sub. I can't tell you which has more output at various frequencies as I am not interested in being in the room with either of these pushed to their limits!

I had the E15HP's in my HT room and have always been very happy with them (after being disappointed by several including the sealed $2,000 JLAudio E112!). Next I wanted to set up a room for a premuim music-only system. I was planning on buying another pair of Rythmiks, but I was invited by another member here to listen to his system. I was impressed enough by his PSA's to do an in-room comparison at my house. In my room, and especially for music, the PSA's did not need any extra tuning or all of the controls of the Rythmik, so I got the PSA'a instead.

Unfortunately, RSL (Speedwoofer) and SVS are the only two subwoofer companies (I know of) that pay shipping if you return them. That means you can try the SB2000 risk free, but with no point of reference to compare it to, you can't easily evaluate it. It sucks to have to pay to ship a 70 lb box, but it is an option to do your research, narrow it down to two, then buy both and eat the return shipping cost for the one you don't want to keep.

 

[speakerman39]

Henry, I have owned both the Hsu ULS 15 MK2 and the PSA S1500 at the same time! Was able to compare them directly in my small room. First thing that I noticed was that the Hsu sure looked better. The S1500 is not ugly by any stretch of the imagination, but the Hsu won out in that department.

After some tweaking between the two, I came to the conclusion that the S1500 was better over all. Was it a night or day difference? Absolutely NOT! They were more similar than anything else. However, the S1500 was just a tad bit tighter and faster. That meant a lot to me given that my preference is on music. But, don't be fooled, both did very well in that regard. For HT purposes, they were not lacking there either.

As I look back, I can easily see that the Hsu ULS 15 MK2w sub was the bigger bargain when compared to the S1500. Truth be told, I ended up with dual S1500's and sold the Hsu off. But, I would have been just as happy w/dual ULS 15 MK2 's as well. In fact, I believe that the ULS 15 MK2 is the best sub on the market for the money.

The PSA S1500 does come with a better warranty. Tom V. also gives the best customer service that I ever experienced from any company period. Hsu is also known for great customer service as well. You would be hard pressed to go wrong w/any of these two. Best wishes on your decision!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. I may still experiment with elevating the sub, if only just to hear what my ears are telling me about this less customary placement in my room.

The only way to know for sure how adversely that elevating your subwoofer will adversely affect your frequency response is to measure it. I guess it doesn't hurt to try raising the sub and see how you like it though. It might not hurt the bass sound, since it typically happens at frequencies a bit above the subwoofer's normal frequency band. Here is a calculator that can help you predict what frequency the cancellation will occur at for your situation.

As for the subs, for sealed, I would go with the Hsu ULS-15 mk2. I don't think you will need that kind of output though, so I don't think you will have to spend that much money. If you like it loud, it is a great choice. And yes, I have heard some of the other subs mentioned in this thread, like the S1500. No way would I go with that over a ULS-15 mk2.

But for pipe organ music, I would be thinking about a ported subwoofer, not a sealed subwoofer. I would be looking at a Hsu VTF2 mk5. It will give you a stronger fundamental for lower pipe organ notes.

 

[Henry Howards]

Usually, I try to keep it simple to avoid analysis paralysis, but since you said you enjoy the process of deciding, I'll give you more to think about. In my room, and especially for music, the PSA's did not need any extra tuning or all of the controls of the Rythmik, so I got the PSA'a instead.

Simplicity is very compelling, and the fact that the PSA subs are able to produce balanced and musical sound without needing to utilize an array of adjustments is a highly persuasive argument in their favor. Although I will be using my sub for both movies and music, I am far more interested in the music. Detail and accuracy are important to me. I'd much rather be able to hear the unique timbre of an organ pedal note than be blown away by volcanic Low Frequency Effects. And as you have said, there is no doubt that the PSA subwoofer has more than enough power to reproduce the deep bass of film soundtracks without any problem.

Unfortunately, RSL (Speedwoofer) and SVS are the only two subwoofer companies (I know of) that pay shipping if you return them. That means you can try the SB2000 risk free, but with no point of reference to compare it to, you can't easily evaluate it.

I'll admit that I do appreciate the "safety net" that these companies provide. This is going to seem pretty bizarre, but I've never actually heard a subwoofer in anyone's home, so I've realized that the first question I need to answer for myself is, "Will the low-frequency augmentation provided by any subwoofer in my listening room be worth the expenditure?" I may just order one of the RSL or SVS subs simply to find out whether my desire to experience that bottom octave in all its glory will surely warrant the money it takes to have it. As I mentioned earlier, I can buy a lot of Blu-rays for $1000 (you should see my Wish List on Amazon -- it extends halfway to the moon). I'm frugal, it's true, though the inconvenient truth is that I just don't have a lot in terms of liquid assets...

By the way, I lived for 20 years in Marietta, GA, from 1981 to 2001. I still have some very good friends there.

 

[Henry Howards]

Henry, I have owned both the Hsu ULS 15 MK2 and the PSA S1500 at the same time! After some tweaking between the two, I came to the conclusion that the S1500 was better overall. As I look back, I can easily see that the Hsu ULS 15 MK2w sub was the bigger bargain when compared to the S1500. You would be hard pressed to go wrong w/any of these two.

Thanks for this analysis -- it's helpful information. Since I'm retired and I need to pay attention to what I'm spending, I will often invest in the "good-bang-for-the-buck" component that is nearly the same quality as the "best in category" product.

 

[Henry Howards]

The only way to know for sure how adversely that elevating your subwoofer will affect your frequency response is to measure it. Here is a calculator that can help you predict what frequency the cancellation will occur at for your situation.

That calculator is ingenious -- I'll be able to get some insight on the sonic results, even before I attempt the heavy lifting. Your link to the Allison Effect was actually the first time I had encountered this principle. It's interesting, because in my little home studio, about 1/3 of the room is kitchen while the other 2/3 is my "living room". This means that my loudspeakers are all asymmetrically placed in their relation to the four walls, as well as their distance from the vaulted ceiling, which could be helping to mitigate the Allison Effect to some degree.

As for the subs, for sealed, I would go with the Hsu ULS-15 mk2. But for pipe organ music, I would be thinking about a ported subwoofer, not a sealed subwoofer. I would be looking at a Hsu VTF2 mk5. It will give you a stronger fundamental for lower pipe organ notes.

I'm looking forward to researching the Audioholics evaluation of these subs you recommend. I'm kind of a slow learner and it's taking me a little while to understand all the variables in subwoofer design, but I'll arrive at a fuller comprehension eventually. I'm finding this process to be quite engrossing...

 

[3db]

Kew, I disagree what was said in this article "http://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety.com/audiophile-wisdom-ported-vs-non-ported-subs/" as these generalizations are old and far out of date. Even my cheap old PSB subsonic 5 chuffed only once and thats because I had the levels misconfigured. With today's technology in servo control offered by Rythmik and other variable tuning parameters by SVS and HSU, there is no reason why a ported sub cannot offer the same percieved "tightness" of bass as a sealed sub up to and included the port tuned frequency.

Even though this article is dated for this year, its clear that the author has biases based on old technology.

 

[KEW]

Henry, I have owned both the Hsu ULS 15 MK2 and the PSA S1500 at the same time! Was able to compare them directly in my small room. First thing that I noticed was that the Hsu sure looked better. The S1500 is not ugly by any stretch of the imagination, but the Hsu won out in that department.

After some tweaking between the two, I came to the conclusion that the S1500 was better over all. Was it a night or day difference? Absolutely NOT! They were more similar than anything else. However, the S1500 was just a tad bit tighter and faster. That meant a lot to me given that my preference is on music. But, don't be fooled, both did very well in that regard. For HT purposes, they were not lacking there either.

As I look back, I can easily see that the Hsu ULS 15 MK2w sub was the bigger bargain when compared to the S1500. Truth be told, I ended up with dual S1500's and sold the Hsu off. But, I would have been just as happy w/dual ULS 15 MK2 's as well. In fact, I believe that the ULS 15 MK2 is the best sub on the market for the money.

The PSA S1500 does come with a better warranty. Tom V. also gives the best customer service that I ever experienced from any company period. Hsu is also known for great customer service as well. You would be hard pressed to go wrong w/any of these two. Best wishes on your decision!

Cheers,

Phil

Henry, one connection you may not have made here is that the S1500 Phil mentions above is essentially identical to the 15S I recommended. Both use the same driver and the same amp in the same sized box. The only difference is that the S1500 is front firing while the 15S is down firing. I know it is counter-intuitive, but bass is not directional and there is not an audible difference between them (at least to my ear). The 15S is $100 less because a grill with mounting hardware (and possible some cosmetic detailing is added to the S1500 while the down-firing 15S has a bare driver facing into the floor. Personally, I like the understated bare look of the 15S better and like to avoid having a grill down low where a vacuum cleaner, etc can damage it.

 

[KEW]

I've never actually heard a subwoofer in anyone's home, so I've realized that the first question I need to answer for myself is, "Will the low-frequency augmentation provided by any subwoofer in my listening room be worth the expenditure?" I may just order one of the RSL or SVS subs simply to find out whether my desire to experience that bottom octave in all its glory will surely warrant the money it takes to have it. As I mentioned earlier, I can buy a lot of Blu-rays for $1000 (you should see my Wish List on Amazon -- it extends halfway to the moon). I'm frugal, it's true, though the inconvenient truth is that I just don't have a lot in terms of liquid assets...

By the way, I lived for 20 years in Marietta, GA, from 1981 to 2001. I still have some very good friends there.

Trying something like the RSL or SVS is a good idea.

Looking at all of the angles, another approach is to buy a SUB-1200 for $130 and experience/evaluate it over the next months as you are looking for your long-term solution. It is actually the best ported sub I have ever heard but (aside from the PC-12 pluses, Klipsch SW-310's and some of the stuff I have heard in shops), I have not heard many ported subs).
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629

The SUB-1200 is an amazing sub for what it costs and you can sell it on Craigslist for $80-90 very quickly. $40-50 is not a bad price for the learning experience of a reasonably decent sub in your room for a year (if that is how long your research takes). While it is not the best SQ, I can promise you it won't suck.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

Well, I'm about 45 minutes N of Marietta. Come visit your friends and I'll host you (and your friends if they are interested) to a demonstration!!!

 

[j_garcia]

I am in San Jose. You are welcome to come hear my sealed sub and a variety of speakers. 15" sealed IMO is the way to go - they can dig deep enough to get the extension while still sounding clean (mine is a dual 15")

I didn't recommend a 15" right away simply because they cost more and I am not sure it is 100% necessary for your space or what you are saying your goals are at the moment. OF COURSE a 15 would do the trick ideally, but is it the right thing? You'd have to decide that.

 

[KEW]

Kew, I disagree what was said in this article "http://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociety.com/audiophile-wisdom-ported-vs-non-ported-subs/" as these generalizations are old and far out of date. Even my cheap old PSB subsonic 5 chuffed only once and thats because I had the levels misconfigured. With today's technology in servo control offered by Rythmik and other variable tuning parameters by SVS and HSU, there is no reason why a ported sub cannot offer the same percieved "tightness" of bass as a sealed sub up to and included the port tuned frequency.

Even though this article is dated for this year, its clear that the author has biases based on old technology.

That has not been my experience. I think it is likely that a musically "tight" ported sub can be made, but I have yet to see one that rivals the quickness of the better sealed subs.

Here is an impulse response spectrogram for the sealed Rythmik E15HP:

Refer to the color scale immediately right of the graph. Look at how tight the red (90dB) clings to the 0ms axis.

Here is the PSA XS15se (pretty darn close to the Rythmik and my ears don't hear the difference!):

Here is the ported (technically passive radiator, but close enough) Salk/Rythmik subwoofer. Fortunately Jim did not combine the two signals from the driver and the port (he was new to the measurement software at the time) so we can see more of what is happening.
For the driver, we see not too different from the behavior of the sealed Rythmik E15HP (which probably has the same driver) above except for some nastiness at around 25Hz:

And when we look at the port, it is apparent that the nastiness comes from port resonance effecting the driver:

Let's look at Rythmik's ported LV12r. Again, the driver and the port are separate charts.
Here is the driver. Not quite as tight as the E15HP. I would assume this is more driver than port as I don't believe the servo system is really depending on acoustic suspension from the cabinet. And again, there is some bloom in the 20-25Hz region:

...and again, we see it comes from the port:

So, both the sealed subs above (which are the best I have heard) are "out of the orange" (i.e. 15dB down from the pulse level) in under 10 milliseconds, it takes the ported Salk/Rythmik >100ms to do the same and the ported Rythmik ~70ms!
Enough picking on Rythmik's ported subs.

Here is the SVS SB1000 followed by the PB1000:

Here we see the SB1000 is "out of the orange" at about 20ms and the ported takes about twice as long.
However, it is not natural for a sealed sub to have such a response. It is obviously a compromise SVS made to appeal to the "Wow, listen to my sub!" crowd. They are fighting physics to get as much deep end as they can out of that 12" driver in a 14" cube! That is a marketing decision and apparently a good one because SVS is probably doing as good as, or better than any of the ID companies. Understandably, the idea of buying a sub that disappears and doesn't call attention to itself is not the first thought people have when spending $500 to $1000 on a sub; they want to be impressed and want to impress others with strong deep bass. I can sympathize - I run my subs 6 to 8dB hotter for HT adventure movies because it is fun feeling the impacts! However, I cannot do this for music without ruining the experience, YMMV.

Since I'm throwing up charts here is the JLAudio E112. It shares a lot with the SB1000!

And here is the SUB 1200 I recommend as an inexpensive "get acquainted" option (split driver & port charts):

So, we see that the SUB 1200 is faster than the PB1000, the Salk/Rythmik, The LV12r; and not too far behind the SB1000 and E112.

Impulse response is not the only measurement of concern, but it seems to be the one that I butt heads with most among the forum recommended subs!

 

[shadyJ]

Impulse response is not the only measurement of concern, but it seems to be the one that I butt heads with most among the forum recommended subs!

Kurt, I think you are misreading those graphs. It looks like what you are attributing to 'quickness' is simply a function of frequency response vs amplitude. If you are interested in stored energy and overhang, a group delay graph would be more telling. And such a measurement would have to be performed in an anechoic setting or a groundplane outdoor setting.