Newb needs some help: speaker size

[Bucknekked]

I'm a newb to this forum, but a lifelong audio buff. I hail back to the days when this new fangled thing called "stereo" was trying to justify its existence. I am glad it caught on. My room is dedicated to 2 channel stereo listening.

I have a new home, and now have a dedicated music room and even though it is one of the worst possible shapes ( a perfect cube, roughly 10x10x10 feet), it has one shining and redeeming quality : its my dedicated space for music (and the occasional movie or video game). After a lot of adjusting, re-adjusting, reading about room acoustics and sound remediation, my little cube sounds pretty danged good. There are some shortcomings, but....

Now that I have it performing, of course now I want to upgrade ! The hardware I have in the room is all a transplant from other homes. None of it was purchased for this room. I was afraid the room would suck so bad it wouldn't be worth investing in. That's a broken assumption. The room sounds great given its limitations. The chief limitation : I listen to music in a near-field setup.

Digital library & media server. Analog turntable. Stereo only listening. 2 bookshelf fronts + sub woofer.

My newb question centers around speaker choice: the size to be exact. When I kick out the foot rest of the media chair, my feet are actually between the front channels. That's a near-field experience and its dictated by the room dimensions.

QUESTION: for a speaker upgrade, should I stick with bookshelf + subwoofer? Is my near field setup going to prohibit floor standing towers? I want the speakers to disappear in the sound stage. For those responders who can't respond without a budget number : $3,000 for the speakers is my relative budget. A little more, a little less, no harm no foul.

See a photo of the layout. Its compact. But its home

 

[Pogre]

do you plan to keep your current sub, or are you going to upgrade it also with the same budget? either way I'd stick with bookshelf speakers for your listening area. I think towers would be overkill especially since you have a sub. you can get some very, very nice bookshelf speakers within your budget. even if it includes a sub.

I recently got a pair of these for my large room. https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-bookshelf I absolutely love them. I don't have much experience listening to much in the 2000 and up range, but a lot of folks here do. you'll get some great suggestions. welcome to the boards.

 

[KenM10759]

Some acoustic panels on the walls and a pair of good near field monitors (LS50) would turn that room into WOW.

 

[shadyJ]

One thing I would do is toe-in the speakers so they are facing the listening position. I would try to get the speakers equidistant from the back and side-walls, so the acoustic reflections hit you evenly. Just doing those two things can 'upgrade' the sound and cost nothing.

Before throwing a lot of money at new speakers, you need to know what is going on with your room. You should instead buy a measurement microphone and take some measurements of the frequency response at your listening position. This will tell you how to proceed next much better than asking a bunch of anonymous people on a message board. Once you have identified any problems, then you can attack them specifically. I would get something like this, hook it up to a laptop and run some sweeps. After that, come back here and show us what you measured, then we can help you identify potential 'opportunities for improvement'.

 

[Bucknekked]

One thing I would do is toe-in the speakers so they are facing the listening position. I would try to get the speakers equidistant from the back and side-walls, so the acoustic reflections hit you evenly. Just doing those two things can 'upgrade' the sound and cost nothing.

Before throwing a lot of money at new speakers, you need to know what is going on with your room. You should instead buy a measurement microphone and take some measurements of the frequency response at your listening position. This will tell you how to proceed next much better than asking a bunch of anonymous people on a message board. Once you have identified any problems, then you can attack them specifically. I would get something like this, hook it up to a laptop and run some sweeps. After that, come back here and show us what you measured, then we can help you identify potential 'opportunities for improvement'.

Shadyj:
I didn't include drawings and measurements, but believe me, I did do almost all of the suggestions in your post. The speakers are measured to the inch in a "golden triangle" arrangement in relationship to the listener. I did a lot of subtle moving to end up with a fairly precise positioning of the speakers away from the walls, corners and staying symmetrical to the listening position. Toe in wasn't one of those things that helped. Running a room analyzer was something I did at the very beginning of setup for this room. I got aggravated and must confess I did not complete that process. If this is a suggestion that you think will bear fruit, I will go in search of a better microphone than the one I used before and give this process another try.

I looked at the microphone you put in your response and I must say that device is worlds away from the one I used. It looks like a device I could learn to love. I will make some plans for a measurement purchase and spend some holiday time mapping the room acoustics. Hopefully this will give me/you/the fellas better data to work with for recommendations.

I am fairly confident we can make recommendations about bookshelf verses tower speakers without this data. But I love the approach and its what sets Audioholics apart (at least in my mind) from the endless purple prose of other places. Science. I loves me some tools.

 

[shadyJ]

What room analyzer did you try to use before?

 

[Diesel57]

Welcome, CONGRATULATIONS with your home and with Your dedicated music room. 2 major tools that will assist you with achieving your place of enjoyment...taking your time mixed with patience...as Shady said take some more measurements along with placement and tweaking, you may not need to spend any money, incorporate those 2 elements above and then let us know...Cheers

PS. What receiver, speakers, TT and sub do you have ?

 

[Bucknekked]

What room analyzer did you try to use before?

 

[Bucknekked]

Welcome, CONGRATULATIONS with your home and with Your dedicated music room. 2 major tools that will assist you with achieving your place of enjoyment...taking your time mixed with patience...as Shady said take some more measurements along with placement and tweaking, you may not need to spend any money, incorporate those 2 elements above and then let us know...Cheers

PS. What receiver, speakers, TT and sub do you have ?

Taking my time is one of my new found skills. I never used to have any patience, but I'm learning it as I get older. I have been working on this setup and tweaking it for most of the year this year. I have it sounding what I think is about as good as it will get. I say that because I have had this hardware in other homes and it didn't sound this good in either of those homes. Time and attention to detail have made this setup sound pretty good in this small dedicated space. But the system has limitations for sure.

Some of the limitations are due to the room size, but there are others due to the style of speakers. My mains are the Klipsch RB 61 mod 2's. The horns are great, but they can wear you out. I may have carpal tunnel syndrome of the ear after 8 years with these horns.

DENON AVR 591
Klipsch RB 61 mains
Klipsch RW 10 subwoofer ( I have 2, one has a blown internal amp, not being used)
Orbit Plus turntable with external pre-amp (I have vinyl, but don't play a lot of it) Brand new !

 

[shadyJ]

View attachment 19663

REW is very good. What aspect of it did you have trouble with? There is a bit of a learning curve, but there are lots of great tutorials online that can get you up to speed quickly.

 

[Bucknekked]

do you plan to keep your current sub, or are you going to upgrade it also with the same budget? either way I'd stick with bookshelf speakers for your listening area. I think towers would be overkill especially since you have a sub. you can get some very, very nice bookshelf speakers within your budget. even if it includes a sub.

I recently got a pair of these for my large room. https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-bookshelf I absolutely love them. I don't have much experience listening to much in the 2000 and up range, but a lot of folks here do. you'll get some great suggestions. welcome to the boards.

The sub is up for grabs ! It looks like I will be doing a room EQ project after some of the suggestions in this thread. The REW should tell me if my current Klipsch sub is up to par, or dragging anchor. As far as the cost goes, I don't want to spend more than I have to for a sound upgrade. I have seen the reviews on the SVS ultra bookshelf speakers. They look great. If they meet my ear test, there's no sense in spending more. But, just reading reviews, so do the KEF LS 50's. How to know which will actually sound better? Throw in the Legacy HD bookshelfs, and now I am confused by choice. This happens a lot when trying to make a speaker decision if you can't do home trials.

But, I appreciate the vote for bookshelf over tower in the general sense. Its the first decision to make when looking at hardware. There are lots of choices to make, but the general form factor is where a lot of those choices begin.

 

[Ponzio]

is that a "newish" Yamaha/Denon AVR? and did u run their equalization programs? it's amazing how far and good they've become in taming a bad acoustical room. i'm working with a 14"x14' cube (room) with a pair of Salk SongTowers, powered by a Yamaha RX-A2000, and the sound is nothing short of amazing. of course even if u get everything correct acoustically the speaker in the end will have the final say, as KenM10759 pointed out. good luck and have fun with u're re-discovered hobby.

 

[KenM10759]

We'll make it worse. Philharmonic BMR or Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 are also incredible speakers for the money. None of the three I've mentioned have the bright horn tweeter of the Klipsch, though if you like Klispch the uplevel Palladium are often on sale. When you combine a bright tweeter with a room that tames nothing, it can get a little painful.

 

[Diesel57]

is that a "newish" Yamaha/Denon AVR? and did u run their equalization programs? it's amazing how far and good they've become in taming a bad acoustical room. i'm working with a 14"x14' cube (room) with a pair of Salk SongTowers, powered by a Yamaha RX-A2000, and the sound is nothing short of amazing. of course even if u get everything correct acoustically the speaker in the end will have the final say, as KenM10759 pointed out. good luck and have fun with u're re-discovered hobby.

As Ken enlighten me on a post a little while ago that with some towers, of course depending on which one it is may not require a sub or subs, there are other factors involved with that being said...

 

[Diesel57]

We'll make it worse. Philharmonic BMR or Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 are also incredible speakers for the money. None of the three I've mentioned have the bright horn tweeter of the Klipsch, though if you like Klispch the uplevel Palladium are often on sale. When you combine a bright tweeter with a room that tames nothing, it can get a little painful.

Might I add, fatiguing to the ears...

 

[Diesel57]

is that a "newish" Yamaha/Denon AVR? and did u run their equalization programs? it's amazing how far and good they've become in taming a bad acoustical room. i'm working with a 14"x14' cube (room) with a pair of Salk SongTowers, powered by a Yamaha RX-A2000, and the sound is nothing short of amazing. of course even if u get everything correct acoustically the speaker in the end will have the final say, as KenM10759 pointed out. good luck and have fun with u're re-discovered hobby.

I haven't had the opportunity yet to hear the Salk Song Towers yet and everyone that have embraced there performance gives them 5 Stars to say...and I believe it...

 

[Pogre]

The sub is up for grabs ! It looks like I will be doing a room EQ project after some of the suggestions in this thread. The REW should tell me if my current Klipsch sub is up to par, or dragging anchor. As far as the cost goes, I don't want to spend more than I have to for a sound upgrade. I have seen the reviews on the SVS ultra bookshelf speakers. They look great. If they meet my ear test, there's no sense in spending more. But, just reading reviews, so do the KEF LS 50's. How to know which will actually sound better? Throw in the Legacy HD bookshelfs, and now I am confused by choice. This happens a lot when trying to make a speaker decision if you can't do home trials.

But, I appreciate the vote for bookshelf over tower in the general sense. Its the first decision to make when looking at hardware. There are lots of choices to make, but the general form factor is where a lot of those choices begin.

SVS will let you return product within 45 days and pay the shipping if you're not satisfied. You may even find you don't need a sub with them. They dig pretty deep for a bookshelf.

I'd lose the klipsch sub. I replaced my klipsch rpw 10 subs with SVS SB1000's and there's no comparison. MAJOR improvement.

 

[Bucknekked]

is that a "newish" Yamaha/Denon AVR? and did u run their equalization programs? it's amazing how far and good they've become in taming a bad acoustical room. i'm working with a 14"x14' cube (room) with a pair of Salk SongTowers, powered by a Yamaha RX-A2000, and the sound is nothing short of amazing. of course even if u get everything correct acoustically the speaker in the end will have the final say, as KenM10759 pointed out. good luck and have fun with u're re-discovered hobby.

My Denon does have Audessy (sp?) although I was never impressed with how it turned out. I always did manual overrides after using it. Its a 2009 vintage Denon I think. Believe it or not, I have SAD (stereo acquisition disease) after just a few days on this forum. It would appear I want to replace my AVR now as well. I can make up some reasons if that makes anyone feel better. Just because is what I have right now

 

[Bucknekked]

We'll make it worse. Philharmonic BMR or Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 are also incredible speakers for the money. None of the three I've mentioned have the bright horn tweeter of the Klipsch, though if you like Klispch the uplevel Palladium are often on sale. When you combine a bright tweeter with a room that tames nothing, it can get a little painful.

Over the years I have enjoyed my Klipsch speakers. They have earned their keep. I think I am at the end of the road with those bright horn tweeters. I am ready to try something more relaxing at the high end. I know that no matter how the room EQ turns out, I will be replacing the speakers. If for no other reason than I have acquired the SAD disease (stereo acquisition disease) after spending time on this forum. Now I also have thoughts about replacing the AVR. Going with a straight up integrated amp, or maybe another AVR. more SAD side effects

 

[Bucknekked]

SVS will let you return product within 45 days and pay the shipping if you're not satisfied. You may even find you don't need a sub with them. They dig pretty deep for a bookshelf.

I'd lose the klipsch sub. I replaced my klipsch rpw 10 subs with SVS SB1000's and there's no comparison. MAJOR improvement.

I have the same sneakin' suspicion about the Klipsch sub. Lets see what the room EQ measurements tell us. I gotta buy the measurement microphone so that will take a few days