Mass shooting in Orlando - Politics

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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Does the converse then hold true? Will singing and playing songs on the radio like We Are The World, Imagine, and Bangladesh mean that good things will happen?
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
You try being gay in Georgia.


Oh that's it. Now Steve doesn't like Jews.
No, but I can imagine what it's like in Georgia but feel free to share your experiences. ;)

As for your link, now that's not fair. We all know I could post dozens of links where the religion of peace killed mass quantities of "infidels" but we also know they would disappear instantly.
 
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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Depends on how you define hate. While most churches in the US have hopefully moved on from preaching violence against LGBTs, a great many (including the Catholic Church) continue to qualify homosexuality as unnatural, depraved, sinful, etc.
It's important to note that the members of a particular religious discipline do not unilaterally subscribe to every position their faith espouses. And it's even more nuanced than that as there are tendencies that vary according to race, age, political ideology, etc.

Along the lines of what you said though Steve, Pew Research compiled the following. As we've all seen, some are more militant and ruthless in their opposition WRT the tenets of their faith.
 
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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
This article, written in response to the Orlando nightclub attack, presupposes that assailant was a homophobe. But was he? His father has said his son was deeply disturbed by homosexuality. Is that true or was his father clueless or maybe trying to provide a rationale for his son's actions?

Just today I'm hearing that former male classmates of his said he hit on them. His ex-wife said she didn't know if he was gay. He was on several gay dating sites. When shown his picture, several recognized him as a regular at Pulse. What I'm getting at is this is far more complex than many including myself understand it to be. It'll take some time to figure this character out and what his motivations could have been. IOW, it may not have been an attack on the gay community by a homophobe but just a matter of convenience.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
This article, written in response to the Orlando nightclub attack, presupposes that assailant was a homophobe. But was he? His father has said his son was deeply disturbed by homosexuality. Is that true or was his father clueless or maybe trying to provide a rationale for his son's actions?

Just today I'm hearing that former male classmates of his said he hit on them. His ex-wife said she didn't know if he was gay. He was on several gay dating sites. When shown his picture, several recognized him as a regular at Pulse. What I'm getting at is this is far more complex than many including myself understand it to be. It'll take some time to figure this character out and what his motivations could have been. IOW, it may not have been an attack on the gay community by a homophobe but just a matter of convenience.
Didn't I call it before my post was deleted! An attack as savage as the one that took place in Orlando goes beyond religious martyrdom. The guy was filled with self-loathing and took it out on what he believed was the source of his iniquity. He wanted to inflict pain, and I don't think he really cared about any religious statement, that was merely an excuse. I think a jihadist would have taken a less personal route to massacre than individually pulling the trigger on a hundred people. He probably would have just strapped a bomb on himself if that was the case.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
.... I just don't understand how he was able to shoot over 100 people .....
Witnesses say the crowds inside were shoulder to shoulder... So the shooter couldn't miss.
Not sure if venue was over its occupancy limit.
It didn't help the all exits were padlocked, except for the front entrance.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Didn't I call it before my post was deleted! An attack as savage as the one that took place in Orlando goes beyond religious martyrdom. The guy was filled with self-loathing and took it out on what he believed was the source of his iniquity. He wanted to inflict pain, and I don't think he really cared about any religious statement, that was merely an excuse. I think a jihadist would have taken a less personal route to massacre than individually pulling the trigger on a hundred people. He probably would have just strapped a bomb on himself if that was the case.
Well, strapping a bomb is pretty personal! But yeah, as you say or said, as it stands now, it doesn't appear this had anything to do with religious martyrdom other than in the sense all three groups he pled allegiance to - ISIS, al Qaeda, and al Nusra - take a dim view towards homosexuality. Of note is that the three groups don't play well with each other.

I hope more people come forth and that a more complete picture of him is developed. In a way he kind of reminds me of that kid who owned the car in Christine.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
This article, written in response to the Orlando nightclub attack, presupposes that assailant was a homophobe. But was he? His father has said his son was deeply disturbed by homosexuality. Is that true or was his father clueless or maybe trying to provide a rationale for his son's actions?

Just today I'm hearing that former male classmates of his said he hit on them. His ex-wife said she didn't know if he was gay. He was on several gay dating sites. When shown his picture, several recognized him as a regular at Pulse. What I'm getting at is this is far more complex than many including myself understand it to be. It'll take some time to figure this character out and what his motivations could have been. IOW, it may not have been an attack on the gay community by a homophobe but just a matter of convenience.
That could very well be true. A homophobic society on top of being a part of a religion that is probably less tolerant of homosexuality than any other, could lead to a sense of self-loathing. Then, claiming allegiance to ISIS could be a convenient diversion from his real motivation. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out.

So, if he wasn't really a "radicalized Islamist terrorist", but just a conflicted gay man, perhaps President Obama is being prescient by not emphasizing the Islamist terrorism aspect of this tragedy. If so, we can go back to discussing pi$$-poor gun control laws.;)
 
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Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
It's important to note that the members of a particular religious discipline do not unilaterally subscribe to every position their faith espouses. And it's even more nuanced than that as there are tendencies that vary according to race, age, political ideology, etc.
I agree; that's why it's important not to paint with too broad a brush. Ultimately, it comes down to the message we as individuals want to take from the scriptures. Many people concentrate on the messages of love, kindness, and forgiveness. Others seem to skip over those parts to focus on hate and vengeance.

As for your link, now that's not fair. We all know I could post dozens of links where the religion of peace killed mass quantities of "infidels" but we also know they would disappear instantly.
The dozens of links you could provide don't really matter in the context of what we're talking about. Nobody denies that groups like ISIS commit great acts of evil in the name of Islam. The point is that Islamic radicals don't have a monopoly on violence.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
That could very well be true. A homophobic society on top of being a part of a religion that is probably less tolerant of homosexuality than any other, could lead to a sense of self-loathing. Then, claiming allegiance to ISIS could be a convenient diversion from his real motivation. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out.

So, if he wasn't really a "radicalized Islamist terrorist", but just a conflicted gay man, perhaps President Obama is being prescient by not emphasizing the Islamist terrorism aspect of this tragedy. If so, we can go back to discussing pi$$-poor gun control laws.;)
We add to this that he was said to be a serious user of steroids and was quite muscled. Severe personality symptoms like rage and violence? Maybe some sexual dysfunction performance issues?

On the topic of gun control laws, consider what Mike Rowe said in part. If he's correct then the points he's making is that we ought not consider additional legislation. Rather, we are ineffectively using the information we already have to keep guns out of the hands most likely to abuse it. He's saying let's step back and look at what we have in place already and fix it.

"I'm just skeptical that expanding a broken system is the best way to keep guns away from bad guys and lunatics.

Currently, thousands of people deemed mentally incompetent by the courts are NOT registered in our National Check System. That’s insane, if you’ll pardon the irony, in part because it’s so easily correctible. Likewise, The ATF says that most states report less than 80% of their felony convictions to the national system. As a result, nearly 7 million convicted felons are not currently registered. Is it any surprise that nearly every mass killer in recent memory passed a background check?

Seems to me, our current system is only as good as the records in it, and right now, those records are laughably incomplete. But even more troubling are the tens of thousands of people who ARE in the system, that keep trying to buy guns illegally with absolutely no consequence.

Lying on your application to purchase a firearm is a federal offense, but very few are prosecuted for doing so. According to Politico, the Feds have prosecuted just 1.5% of all those individuals who have attempted to purchase a gun illegally. If my math is correct, that means 98.5% of people who are NOT allowed to own a gun, have not been prosecuted for trying to buy one.

Maybe it’s a manpower problem? Maybe it’s a resource problem? But whatever the reason, many thousands of individuals who try to purchase a gun illegally are allowed to keep on trying. Many eventually succeed, and then use that gun in the commission of a crime. This strikes me a serious problem. And yet, I’ve received no tweets from my favorite action heroes, asking me to support an effort to fix the system we have. Why is that?

To be clear, I’m not a member of The NRA. Last time I joined a club it was The Boy Scouts, and that was a long time ago. But from what I can tell, the NRA is not the reason that so many criminals and lunatics are able to buy guns today. Nor do they appear to oppose the kind of overhaul that would give us a more effective check system. In fact, wasn’t it The NRA that demanded background checks back in the mid-nineties, the moment the technology was first made available?

Regardless, we now possess the technology to update and maintain an accurate data base of felons, lunatics, gang members, terrorists, B-list celebrities, and other unsavory types that we can all agree should never be allowed to own a weapon. We also possess the ability to identify and prosecute anyone who attempts to buy a gun illegally. But if we don’t have the resources or the commitment to administer and enforce the system we have, why in the world would we want to make it bigger?

#When there’s a hole in your net, you don’t need a bigger net; you need a smaller hole.

#When your foundation is shaky, you don’t keep building on top of it, you knock it down and start over"
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I agree; that's why it's important not to paint with too broad a brush. Ultimately, it comes down to the message we as individuals want to take from the scriptures. Many people concentrate on the messages of love, kindness, and forgiveness. Others seem to skip over those parts to focus on hate and vengeance.
WRT the Islam, I asked my father-in-law, a Muslim, what his thoughts were on the part in the Koran where it says Mohammed was able to hide from his enemies because he hid in a cave and a spider spun a web hiding the entrance. I know of no spider capable of such a feat. His reply was that it is not permissible to question what is written. If that's what the Koran said, that's what happened. I sensed by the way he said it he thought it was a tall tale written at a time when people believed in such tall tales but in accordance with his faith he would not openly question it.




The dozens of links you could provide don't really matter in the context of what we're talking about. Nobody denies that groups like ISIS commit great acts of evil in the name of Islam. The point is that Islamic radicals don't have a monopoly on violence.
Well, the radical and conservative elements have done a spectacular job at violence, treating women and others as second class entities, dictating what is and is not permissible in communities, etc. While there may be a relatively small percentage actually prone to violence, even 0.1% of a billion is still 100,000. The percentage of those not openly violent but supportive (enablers) is even higher.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I sensed by the way he said it he thought it was a tall tale written at a time when people believed in such tall tales but in accordance with his faith he would not openly question it.
Ehh, I consider them all to be more or less equivalent to Aesop's Fables, i.e. stories meant to have some meaning as opposed to an accurate portrayal of history. The question is whether or not we should still be guided by the moral compass of people who lived thousands of years ago. In some cases, those teachings are still worth repeating. In others, you'd be a considered barbarian if you tried to apply them today (i.e. ISIS).

Well, the radical and conservative elements have done a spectacular job at violence, treating women and others as second class entities, dictating what is and is not permissible in communities, etc. While there may be a relatively small percentage actually prone to violence, even 0.1% of a billion is still 100,000. The percentage of those not openly violent but supportive (enablers) is even higher.
To be fair, a great many Christians in this country were happy to support slavery, deny women the right to vote, etc. Western civilization's "progressive" streak is a relatively new phenomenon in the grand scheme of things, and even then it arguably has a ways to go.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
We add to this that he was said to be a serious user of steroids and was quite muscled. Severe personality symptoms like rage and violence? Maybe some sexual dysfunction performance issues?

On the topic of gun control laws, consider what Mike Rowe said in part. If he's correct then the points he's making is that we ought not consider additional legislation. Rather, we are ineffectively using the information we already have to keep guns out of the hands most likely to abuse it. He's saying let's step back and look at what we have in place already and fix it.

"I'm just skeptical that expanding a broken system is the best way to keep guns away from bad guys and lunatics.

Currently, thousands of people deemed mentally incompetent by the courts are NOT registered in our National Check System. That’s insane, if you’ll pardon the irony, in part because it’s so easily correctible. Likewise, The ATF says that most states report less than 80% of their felony convictions to the national system. As a result, nearly 7 million convicted felons are not currently registered. Is it any surprise that nearly every mass killer in recent memory passed a background check?

Seems to me, our current system is only as good as the records in it, and right now, those records are laughably incomplete. But even more troubling are the tens of thousands of people who ARE in the system, that keep trying to buy guns illegally with absolutely no consequence.

Lying on your application to purchase a firearm is a federal offense, but very few are prosecuted for doing so. According to Politico, the Feds have prosecuted just 1.5% of all those individuals who have attempted to purchase a gun illegally. If my math is correct, that means 98.5% of people who are NOT allowed to own a gun, have not been prosecuted for trying to buy one.

Maybe it’s a manpower problem? Maybe it’s a resource problem? But whatever the reason, many thousands of individuals who try to purchase a gun illegally are allowed to keep on trying. Many eventually succeed, and then use that gun in the commission of a crime. This strikes me a serious problem. And yet, I’ve received no tweets from my favorite action heroes, asking me to support an effort to fix the system we have. Why is that?

To be clear, I’m not a member of The NRA. Last time I joined a club it was The Boy Scouts, and that was a long time ago. But from what I can tell, the NRA is not the reason that so many criminals and lunatics are able to buy guns today. Nor do they appear to oppose the kind of overhaul that would give us a more effective check system. In fact, wasn’t it The NRA that demanded background checks back in the mid-nineties, the moment the technology was first made available?

Regardless, we now possess the technology to update and maintain an accurate data base of felons, lunatics, gang members, terrorists, B-list celebrities, and other unsavory types that we can all agree should never be allowed to own a weapon. We also possess the ability to identify and prosecute anyone who attempts to buy a gun illegally. But if we don’t have the resources or the commitment to administer and enforce the system we have, why in the world would we want to make it bigger?

#When there’s a hole in your net, you don’t need a bigger net; you need a smaller hole.

#When your foundation is shaky, you don’t keep building on top of it, you knock it down and start over"
I'm not familiar with the intricacies of American gun laws, but I wasn't aware that an application was required - in all circumstances - to purchase a firearm. I had the impression that requirements varied by state. I also thought that buying at a gun show didn't involve any prerequisites. Is that not accurate? What about private sales?

In Canada, gun laws are pretty much all federal. In all circumstances, you need to take a firearms safety course and get a Possession and Acquisition Licence. A background check WILL be done and if you have lied on your application, you WILL be caught. Any domestic abuse complaints will get your licence revoked and your firearms confiscated.

But, you're right, if there are already laws on the books that aren't being enforced, that would be the first step.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I'm not familiar with the intricacies of American gun laws, but I wasn't aware that an application was required - in all circumstances - to purchase a firearm. I had the impression that requirements varied by state. I also thought that buying at a gun show didn't involve any prerequisites. Is that not accurate? What about private sales?
Any sale from a federally licensed firearms dealer, show or not, requires a background check. Private sales do not, though it's still illegal to sell to a felon and various others. In this case, the guns were sold at a dealer, and the guy passed a background check in spite of various red flags we now know about (he was questioned several times by the FBI regarding terrorist sympathies, was a physically abusive spouse, etc).
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Ehh, I consider them all to be more or less equivalent to Aesop's Fables, i.e. stories meant to have some meaning as opposed to an accurate portrayal of history. The question is whether or not we should still be guided by the moral compass of people who lived thousands of years ago. In some cases, those teachings are still worth repeating. In others, you'd be a considered barbarian if you tried to apply them today (i.e. ISIS).



To be fair, a great many Christians in this country were happy to support slavery, deny women the right to vote, etc. Western civilization's "progressive" streak is a relatively new phenomenon in the grand scheme of things, and even then it arguably has a ways to go.
"Christendom" has come a long way over the last couple hundred years - with the exception of some conservative denominations. Although fundamentalist Christians haven't been acting like Islamist extremists, it's more a matter of scale, rather than mentality. Whether it's the bombing of abortion clinics, right up to atrocities in Northern Ireland and in the Balkans, contemporary Christianity isn't blameless. If Biblical laws and exhortations were followed to the letter, western society would look much like ISIS' so-called caliphate. It's too bad that many Muslims cannot read the Koran through modern eyes.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Any sale from a federally licensed firearms dealer, show or not, requires a background check. Private sales do not, though it's still illegal to sell to a felon and various others. In this case, the guns were sold at a dealer, and the guy passed a background check in spite of various red flags we now know about (he was questioned several times by the FBI regarding terrorist sympathies, was a physically abusive spouse, etc).
OK, that's a bit different than here. Background checks are done before you ever go to buy a firearm, as part of your licencing process. And, if you buy privately, you'd better have that PAL, or you and the seller will be going in front of the judge. If you're caught, of course.

We also have magazine restrictions - five rounds, max. Something like that would slow a shooter down a bit. In fact, I see no need for private possession of semi-automatic rifles. The best rifle for hunting and target shooting would be bolt-action anyway.

Yeah, this guy should have been weeded out beforehand.
 
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Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Something has changed, and it’s not the availability of guns in the United States.
Though they are a great distraction and easier than looking at the real problem.


Since ISIS burst on the international scene, Jihadists have killed 73 American men and women in just two years. And that number would be much higher if not for the courage and bravery of local police.

The list: (Fort Hood terrorist isn't on this list)

From April to June, 2014, Ali Muhammed Brown killed four Americans on a “mission of vengeance” against the United States.

On September 25, 2014, Alton Nolen beheaded an Oklahoma woman with a knife. His social media pages were covered with evidence of jihadist leanings and motivations.

On May 3, 2015, Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi attacked an exhibit of Mohammed images in Garland, Texas. They wounded a security officer, but police killed them before they were able to carry out mass murder.

On July 16, 2015, Mohammad Abdulazeez killed five people at two Chattanooga recruiting stations. FBI director James Comey declared that Abdulazeez was “inspired/motivated” by terrorist propaganda.

On November 4, 2015, Faisal Mohammed went on an ISIS-inspired stabbing spree — wounding four — before he was killed by campus police.

On December 2, 2015, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik pledged allegiance to ISIS then killed 14 people and wounded 21 at a Christmas party in San Bernardino, Calif.

On January 8, 2015, Edward Archer pledged himself to ISIS and attempted to assassinate a Philadelphia police officer. The wounded officer chased down and apprehended Archer before he could commit any other acts of violence.

On June 12, 2016, Omar Mateen pledged himself to ISIS and killed 49 people and wounds 53 at a gay nightclub in Orlando. After reading info on his father, seems the nut didn't fall far from the tree.

This death toll at home is augmented by an extraordinary toll overseas
— with Paris facing repeated violent attacks.
The Paris attacks were conducted in a nation with far tighter gun controls than any state in the United States, and it resulted in more than twice the casualties of Orlando.

Brussels bombed,
a Russian airliner brought down,
and ISIS-inspired violence reaching all the way to Australia.

There's a pint of ice cream in the freezer....
I'm going to blame our kitchen drawer full of spoons for making me gain weight.:D
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Ehh, I consider them all to be more or less equivalent to Aesop's Fables, i.e. stories meant to have some meaning as opposed to an accurate portrayal of history. The question is whether or not we should still be guided by the moral compass of people who lived thousands of years ago. In some cases, those teachings are still worth repeating. In others, you'd be a considered barbarian if you tried to apply them today (i.e. ISIS)
What you or I consider to be fables is not what a devout follower ascribes to.

Over at the Middle East Media Research Institute TV Monitor Project, http://www.memritv.org you'll find actual footage of what is being said around the world, in English or translated. Poke around a bit to get a sense of of what's going on and not what the news here suggests. See what clerics, newscasters, scholars are actually saying. People here got offended when Obama was deemed a Muslim. You'll find videos from around the world that support that POV and provide their rationale for doing so. It's not from republicans either.



To be fair, a great many Christians in this country were happy to support slavery, deny women the right to vote, etc. Western civilization's "progressive" streak is a relatively new phenomenon in the grand scheme of things, and even then it arguably has a ways to go.
Certainly, but to fairer let's look at matters in the 21st century. Who's largely living in a world 1400 years in the past?
 
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