Crossover setting on subwoofer

[fuzz092888]

That's not LFE. That's bass redirection I believe. It can't be the LFE channel since it does not exist for musical recordings. Musical recordings on DVDA and SACD, AFAIK, do not fall under the same mastering standards as movies. That .1 that you hear is, as far as my understanding of musical recordings goes, a built in crossover so to speak, where the mastering engineer has already crossed over sound or layered in instruments that would be best played by the sub.

Again, I could be wrong, but that's still not an example of the LFE channel in a musical recording as far as I can tell.

The LFE channel, by definition, is for movie soundtracks.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's not LFE. That's bass redirection I believe. It can't be the LFE channel since it does not exist for musical recordings. Musical recordings on DVDA and SACD, AFAIK, do not fall under the same mastering standards as movies. That .1 that you hear is, as far as my understanding of musical recordings goes, a built in crossover so to speak, where the mastering engineer has already crossed over sound or layered in instruments that would be best played by the sub.

Again, I could be wrong, but that's still not an example of the LFE channel in a musical recording as far as I can tell.

The LFE channel, by definition, is for movie soundtracks.

If it's played back on the LFE channel and put there deliberately I don't see why that doesn't qualify (LFE is manufactured also). https://www.audioholics.com/music-reviews/steve-wilson-hand-cannot-erase

 

[fuzz092888]

If it's played back on the LFE channel and put there deliberately I don't see why that doesn't qualify (LFE is manufactured also). https://www.audioholics.com/music-reviews/steve-wilson-hand-cannot-erase

That's not the same thing. That has been mastered to the DTSHD standard....a movie standard which means that there is a dedicated LFE channel available. It says that right in the article you linked. For the SACD, DVDA I don't believe it is mastered to a movie standard, which would mean it is technically not a real LFE channel.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's not the same thing. That has been mastered to the DTSHD standard....a movie standard which means that there is a dedicated LFE channel available. It says that right in the article you linked. For the SACD, DVDA I don't believe it is mastered to a movie standard, which would mean it is technically not a real LFE channel.

I still don't see the distinction, sorry. If it's on the .1 channel, whether you call it movie LFE or music content, it is still discrete content. More music should be done this way, get out of the limits of 2ch thinking....

 

[herbu]

More music should be done this way, get out of the limits of 2ch thinking....

That might be a rough row to hoe. I suppose there are a million stereo systems for every system w/ a sub. In a 2.1 music master, would everything in the .1 channel just be lost w/ a stereo system? How is that better than a 2.0 master, and those with a sub can utilize a crossover?

 

[Dan Madden]

LFE = Low frequency effects produced normally for movies and they are sent to the sub based on the crossover frequency set in the receiver. All sound above that setting will be sent to the mains, center and surrounds.

LF= Bass found in all other sources (ie...CD/ radio) and they too will be sent to the sub via the crossover setting set in the receiver.

The receiver doesn't care what the source is and will send all LFE and LF bass to the sub(s) based on the low pass frequency set inside it's menus.

For example, if you had a 5 channel system with NO sub, you could set all speakers to 'large' and the receiver/amp would send all the LFE (In DD and DTS) and LF frequencies from all other music sources to all the speakers equally. As well, if your center and surrounds are smaller than your mains, you could set the mains to large and the center and surrounds to small, and the receiver/amp would send all the LFE and LF bass from music sources to the mains only based on the low pass frequency set within the amp.

 

[fuzz092888]

LFE = Low frequency effects produced normally for movies and they are sent to the sub based on the crossover frequency set in the receiver. All sound above that setting will be sent to the mains, center and surrounds.

LF= Bass found in all other sources (ie...CD/ radio) and they too will be sent to the sub via the crossover setting set in the receiver.

The receiver doesn't care what the source is and will send all LFE and LF bass to the sub(s) based on the low pass frequency set inside it's menus.

For example, if you had a 5 channel system with NO sub, you could set all speakers to 'large' and the receiver/amp would send all the LFE (In DD and DTS) and LF frequencies from all other music sources to all the speakers equally. As well, if your center and surrounds are smaller than your mains, you could set the mains to large and the center and surrounds to small, and the receiver/amp would send all the LFE and LF bass from music sources to the mains only based on the low pass frequency set within the amp.

Just one correction. For the LFE channel, you can set a low pass filter, but it is separate from the crossover that is used when you set the speakers to small and no LFE content is sent to the speakers.

 

[Don G.]

Amazing how confusing all of this is. I can't tell you how your receiver and sub work, I will tell you how mine works.

I have my mains set to small and have the sub getting everything below 50 hz. That means in all cases, it will send everything above 50 Hz to my main channel speakers and everything below that to the sub (yes, I know there is a slope and some content below 50 still goes to my mains).

In addition, my AV Preamp sends a Low Frequency Effects signal to the sub and that is set at 120 hz. So, it sends everything in that .1 channel up to 120 Hz to the sub, IN ADDITION TO all content below 50 Hz going to the main left and right speakers.

Very misunderstood topic and totally unrelated to the dial on the back of your sub which you would only use if you want to use the crossover in the sub for the left and right channel bass management.

 

[fuzz092888]

Amazing how confusing all of this is. I can't tell you how your receiver and sub work, I will tell you how mine works.

I have my mains set to small and have the sub getting everything below 50 hz. That means in all cases, it will send everything above 50 Hz to my main channel speakers and everything below that to the sub (yes, I know there is a slope and some content below 50 still goes to my mains).

In addition, my AV Preamp sends a Low Frequency Effects signal to the sub and that is set at 120 hz. So, it sends everything in that .1 channel up to 120 Hz to the sub, IN ADDITION TO all content below 50 Hz going to the main left and right speakers.

Very misunderstood topic and totally unrelated to the dial on the back of your sub which you would only use if you want to use the crossover in the sub for the left and right channel bass management.

It's not that complicated, since you have it correct. It's only confusing when people start using terms incorrectly and calling things LFE when they aren't. Ignorance and lack of precision breeds confusion.

 

[PENG]

if you want to use the crossover in the sub for the left and right channel bass management.

To avoid confusing it with the AVR's "crossover" settings, it may be better to call the one in the sub low pass filter. Some subs do have a build in high pass filter too, typically at fixed frequency such as 80 Hz.

 

[lovinthehd]

That might be a rough row to hoe. I suppose there are a million stereo systems for every system w/ a sub. In a 2.1 music master, would everything in the .1 channel just be lost w/ a stereo system? How is that better than a 2.0 master, and those with a sub can utilize a crossover?

Indeed. Probably wouldn't be worth trying to just expand a bit on 2ch, I was talking more about 5 or 7 ch use. We don't worry about old mono gear now that 2ch gear has replaced much of it, and now that is happening with multich gear to an extent. You could engineer the recording to contain both 2.0 and 2.1 (or 5.1 or 7.1) information as is currently done with movie discs. Wouldn't be able to do it with vinyl, tho. I wonder what the current number of multi-ch systems vs 2ch systems is now, particularly in the US. My 2ch gear sits mostly unused in a spare bedroom; have several multi-ch setups in regular use. Dreaming...

 

[PENG]

Thanks so much, Ill start looking again

I am impressed with this one: http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Overture-Kunzel-Cincinnati-Multichannel/dp/B00005AVNH

As mentioned by others already, the way most music SACD/DVDA's so called .1 channel is not going to be used in the same way as the original Dolby LFE was designed for, some newer ones even use it to carry the height information. Like anything else, there could be exceptions, but likely just a handful.

 

[Dan Madden]

It's possible that some receivers have a separate LFE setting and LF setting. However, my Rotel has only one sub crossover frequency......period.

As well, my subs have a bypass mode that turns off any crossover settings on them and lets the receiver send the LF/LFE to them already filtered. Easy eh???!!!

 

[fuzz092888]

It's possible that some receivers have a separate LFE setting and LF setting. However, my Rotel has only one sub crossover frequency......period.

As well, my subs have a bypass mode that turns off any crossover settings on them and lets the receiver send the LF/LFE to them already filtered. Easy eh???!!!

Sounds worse to me. AFAIK all modern receivers except for maybe the lowest models (for multichannel from the major companies) have the separate setting.

Not allowing the sub to potentially handle the LFE channel all the way up to the max is a pretty simple and stupid oversight for a modern multichannel receiver/processor IMO.

 

[lovinthehd]

It's possible that some receivers have a separate LFE setting and LF setting. However, my Rotel has only one sub crossover frequency......period.

As well, my subs have a bypass mode that turns off any crossover settings on them and lets the receiver send the LF/LFE to them already filtered. Easy eh???!!!

If you are talking about an actual speaker/sub crossover vs the LPF for the LFE channel in avrs, those are different things for different purposes....you need both an LPF and an HPF together to constitute a crossover.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

This may be a dumb question, I'm going to ask anyway. LFE is the discrete channel for movies. We can all agree on this. Also LFE is recorded 10db higher than the managed bass going to the sub from all speakers set small. Ok. So if there is such a discrete channel for music, is it also recorded at 10db higher ?

 

[BlwnAway]

This may be a dumb question, I'm going to ask anyway. LFE is the discrete channel for movies. We can all agree on this. Also LFE is recorded 10db higher than the managed bass going to the sub from all speakers set small. Ok. So if there is such a discrete channel for music, is it also recorded at 10db higher ?

I'll probably get crucified for not being 100% technically correct about this, but...
I thought that LFE simply had a 10db higher reference threshold, I don't think it's necessarily mastered at +10db across the board.
Could be wrong...?

If that's correct, it probably would change much no matter what the format.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I was always told that LFE for movies, such as explosions, earthquakes stuff like that, is 10db louder than than the normal managed bass going to the subwoofer. So the LFE Channel is only active during certain scenes of movies. Otherwise the subwoofer is playing managed bass from all the other channels. LFE is purposely recorded at 10db higher.

 

[PENG]

I was always told that LFE for movies, such as explosions, earthquakes stuff like that, is 10db louder than than the normal managed bass going to the subwoofer. So the LFE Channel is only active during certain scenes of movies. Otherwise the subwoofer is playing managed bass from all the other channels. LFE is purposely recorded at 10db higher.

Really not that simple and may not be what you think it is. I strongly recommend you read the article link below, and read the fine print.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html

There are better ones to read but this one seems simpler to digest.

 

[PENG]

I still don't see the distinction, sorry. If it's on the .1 channel, whether you call it movie LFE or music content, it is still discrete content. More music should be done this way, get out of the limits of 2ch thinking....

Agree with the first part but not the last..For music there don't seem to be a need and in fact some, e.g. Telarc are using the .1 channel for height information.