Crossover setting on subwoofer

[PENG]

Yes but at what point does YPAO give up other than a level/delay setting for the sub? I've seen various suggestions but never sure just where it gives up, have assumed it was at best 30ish hertz but not sure if its more in the 60ish range. Certainly not as good as Audyssey....or is it?

Good question but I don't know whether it would be even 60ish, perhaps 80ish? The article I linked clearly showed YPAO's basic/older version does not deal with time domain related issues whereas the newer YPAO R.S.C., along with Trinnov, Dirac, Audyssey and Anthem ARC, does. In case you missed the link in post#59, here it is again:

https://simplehomecinema.com/2014/10/09/yamaha-ypao-and-ypao-r-s-c-advanced-topic/

Note that is the article was not by Yamaha, but the author did claim:

"Please note that not all statements are backed up by measurement graphs, but the article was written after being in email communication with the engineers at Yamaha Japan who designed YPAO (with the help of Yamaha Australia, thank you!) and taking hundreds of measurements and configurations for testing. These may be published at a later time. For the benefit of contributing to the community, the findings are published without wait."

Regarding Audyssey, I suppose you have read some of Chris K's Q&A on time domain related articles such as the ones below:

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/audyssey-room-eq-interview
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20352398-Time-Domain-correction-explained
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/73287-How-does-MultEQ-apply-room-correction-
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/215529-MultEQ-vs-other-equalization-methods-

The first one (thanks to Steve Munz) is an excellent read as it is more recent.

I have no idea if Audyssey is better than YPAO R.S.C. or others as I have only used Audyssey and YPAO (original version). I would like to try Anthem ARC but I don't prefer their AVRs or prepros so that won't be an option for me.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Do either of you guys know, if one takes the (bass out ) and instead of having it set to (subwoofer) but set it too (both). BUT. Your mains are set to SMALL. What happens ?

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Anyone ?

 

[PENG]

Do either of you guys know, if one takes the (bass out ) and instead of having it set to (subwoofer) but set it too (both). BUT. Your mains are set to SMALL. What happens ?

I hate to guess, but my educated guess is that "both" would, and should only work if at least the front L,R are set to large. The manual did not make that clear but I thought it should also be understood, logically, that if you set front L,R to small then it wouldn't make sense to NOT re-direct the bass at/below crossover freq to the subwoofer. Conversely, if the bass for the L,R are not re-directed to the subwoofer, then they should be set to large.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yea. I found on Yamaha's website, that if all speakers are set Small, and bass out to sub, that all LFE/BASS for those channels in directed to the sub. Now if all speakers are set small and LFE/BASS out is set to BOTH, then all again is directed to sub. This is right off the site. I agree the manual was not clear. The reason this is come up, is when ( both ) is selected, and mains are set a (small ) the Subs come to life. I have a feeling That when set to small, the bass management is not redirecting main channel bass to sub. Unless mains Channel is set small, and bass out is set to both . again according to their website, if Bass out is set to both, And mains are set to (small ) LFE/bass is directed to the sub. Thanks for responding PENG

 

[PENG]

Yea. I found on Yamaha's website, that if all speakers are set Small, and bass out to sub, that all LFE/BASS for those channels in directed to the sub. Now if all speakers are set small and LFE/BASS out is set to BOTH, then all again is directed to sub. This is right off the site. I agree the manual was not clear. The reason this is come up, is when ( both ) is selected, and mains are set a (small ) the Subs come to life. I have a feeling That when set to small, the bass management is not redirecting main channel bass to sub. Unless mains Channel is set small, and bass out is set to both . again according to their website, if Bass out is set to both, And mains are set to (small ) LFE/bass is directed to the sub. Thanks for responding PENG

While the Yamaha manual was not clear, D&M's are. For D&M AVRs/Prepros, if you set subwoofer to LFE+Main (same as Yamaha's "both" I assume), then the subwoofer will get not only LFE signals and redirected bass from channels that are set to "small", but will also get the bass signals from the channels such as front L,R that are set to "large", depending on the crossover frequencies.

I would like to assume Yamaha's "both" would work in similar way but as I said I would be guessing albeit guessing logically. When you said the "subs came to life" when they are set to "both" and mains set to small, that did not make sense. Did you accidentally set the mains to large, if you did, then yes you are getting what people refer to as double bass, when the subs are set to both.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

No. My mains are definitely set to small .

 

[PENG]

Just fyi, below was what Denon said:

"In the Speaker Configuration menu, when the speaker channel is set to "Small" the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode menu can be set to LFE or LFE + Main. This will pass all frequencies under the crossover point to the Subwoofer.

If the speaker channel is set to "Large" you may want to set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode set to LFE + MAIN as this setting will duplicate the low frequencies to the Subwoofer. If you set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode to LFE nothing will output to the Subwoofer with the exception of the LFE from a Dolby or DTS encoded track.

LFE (Low Frequency Effect) - The discrete content sent to the subwoofer from a Dolby or DTS encoded audio track. (The .1 in a 5.1 or 7.1 audio track)

LFE + Main - The low frequencies output to the Subwoofer whether the speaker channels are set to Large or Small."

So you can see that, with Denon, or Marantz, if the mains are set to small, whether you set LFE+Main or LFE makes no difference. It makes a difference if the mains are set to large. For Yamaha, you may want to call their customer support again, instead of guessing.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

And bass out. Set to both . If you go on the Yamaha website they have it on the frequently asked questions there.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I guess I can just turn off the subwoofers and then switch back-and-forth between both and subwoofer, and see what it does to the mains

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

But according to Yamaha when mains are set to small, on bass out is set to both, the LFE/bass is redirected to the subwoofer.

 

[PENG]

But according to Yamaha when mains are set to small, on bass out is set to both, the LFE/bass is redirected to the subwoofer.

Yes, that would be what I expected, same as Denon/Marantz, no argument from me. In your post#65, you stated:

I have a feeling That when set to small, the bass management is not redirecting main channel bass to sub.

and then you stated:

when ( both ) is selected, and mains are set a (small ) the Subs come to life.

That's what I find puzzling, even contradictory to what you said the Yamaha FAQ was saying.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I even get a lot more bass through streaming Sonos for regular music . Google Yamaha bass out, It will pop up. What I don't understand, Is if mains are set to small, and bass out is set to both. Are the mains still crossed over at 80 Hz ?

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I think I figured it out. I took the grill of the RF-7, from there I gently applied my hand onto the woofer, and switched from SWR, and BOTH. I don't believe the Yamaha site is right, The reason I'm getting a lot more bass is because even with the mains put at small, with bass out to both. The mains are getting a lot more bass. When I go back to SWR, The mains are back to the crossover point. So you are correct When Mains are set small, and bass out both even just listening to music , the mains get a lot more bass. Which to me does not make any sense, that would mean the switch from large to small does absolutely nothing if bass out is set too Both

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I believe all of these manufacturers should be held to a higher standard. They all need to learn how to write in English in these manuals

 

[PENG]

When Mains are set small, and bass out both even just listening to music , the mains get a lot more bass. Which to me does not make any sense, that would mean the switch from large to small does absolutely nothing if bass out is set too Both

I can only confirm this is the case (that is, small or large makes no difference to the subout if you select LFE+Main) for Denon and Marantz products. Now, there is a difference obviously for the mains if you set them to large because then they will try to play full range, not just the frequencies above the XO point. They don't call it "double bass" for nothing.

For Yamaha's "both", I can only guess that is works the same as D&M's LFE+Main. Based on your findings you have been describing though, I bet I am guessing right.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yet even more screwed up. I get more bass that way through the mains, then having bass out to SWR, and mains large. That test confirmed to me that my receiver does bass management properly. When bass out is set to SWR, and mains are set LARGE, You can hear it take the bass from the subs. When you switch back to small, subs pick back up

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

your awesome PENG

 

[PENG]

Yet even more screwed up. I get more bass that way through the mains, then having bass out to SWR, and mains large. That test confirmed to me that my receiver does bass management properly. When bass out is set to SWR, and mains are set LARGE, You can hear it take the bass from the subs. When you switch back to small, subs pick back up

Again, let's be clear and more specific, if you set mains to large with a crossover point such as 80 Hz and sub set to both, you will get more bass (so called double bass, assuming the bass from mains and subs are not cancelling each other out in any significant way) because even though the subout will be the same either way, the mains will now try to play the low bass below the XO point as well. So when I said "no difference", I referred to the subout only, there is obviously a difference for the mains if you set them to large, that's understood right?

I will not use such setting because I see no point overlapping the mains with the subs. Sure you may get more bass but to me that would be too boomy, worse yet, the main's bass may even cancel out some of the sub's bass (not in your case obviously or you wouldn't be reporting more bass).

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

You are correct. If mains are set to LARGE, and BASS out to BOTH, yes tons of bass. What I was referring to was bass out to (SWR,) and mains LARGE. When Mains are put back to small more bass out of the subs. Via bass management. If BOTH, is selected in the avr , whether the mains are selected large or small , The mains are full range. Otherwise The AVR could not send out LFE to the main channel.