Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

Seriously, you don't need a DBT to use your ears. Have a little faith that it's not just air in between them.

Pouring a little gasoline on the fire just to amuse yourself? I understand. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

 

[Speedskater]

Seriously, you don't need a DBT to use your ears. Have a little faith that it's not just air in between them.

Well in fact, you do need a DBT to just use your ears.

 

[Alex2507]

Pouring a little gasoline on the fire just to amuse yourself? I understand. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

I was being serious. It's like having somebody try to convince me that I don't smell something.

Well in fact, you do need a DBT to just use your ears.

I had to read that 3 times. Well played.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I was being serious. It's like having somebody try to convince me that I don't smell something.

Smelling is different than hearing. Smell is more sensitive and discerning. Pick another analogy.

 

[shadyJ]

Memory and perception are unreliable. This has been demonstrated over and over for at least the last 2500 years. How much longer is it going to take to sink in?

 

[lovinthehd]

I've changed in and out quite a few receivers and amps over the years. Sure, they can sound different at first but in the long run find it doesn't matter, at least not enough to make any difference so I simply don't worry about it. I do remember plugging in my brand new super audiophile power amps back in the 80s and first thinking so what's the fuss all about?

What I'd really like to see is a database put together by all the amp listeners with their rankings/comments (somehow....a subjective database is going to be hard, real hard). I think its more like how food tastes different to each of us...and like food, highly dependent on mood and environment. And smell. Too bad we can't smell sound as a backup

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And nothing like an audible-differences-in-amps thread to bring out the DBT trolls and get one or two of them a time-out for bad behavior.

And also bring out the non-DBT trolls and other trolls.

 

[Speedskater]

I was being serious. It's like having somebody try to convince me that I don't smell something.

To put it another way:
If a person does not need to see smoke to smell something burning,
why does an audiophile need to see the components to hear a difference?

 

[Alex2507]

Pick another analogy.

Which analogy would demonstrate that human ears are suitable for listening?

I'm just about positive you know that I'm not against DBT. I support it even but I haven't seen one performed. Given that I've gone a little out of my way to listen to different speakers, I'd like to think that those experiences carry some validity.

Take ADTG for example. I don't remember him mentioning any type of blind testing but I trust he can tell the difference between a Salon II and an Infinity Primus like every f^%&ing time! I'll put money on it!

When Harman uses DBT to understand listener preference in the pursuit of profit, it makes sense to me. They're using the best data they can get for use in mass production. That's a far cry from 3 @ssholes sitting in a basement with a curtain.

 

[PENG]

And also bring out the non-DBT trolls and other trolls.

There are all kinds of trolls indeed. lol

 

[PENG]

I said that before and wouldn't mind saying this a few more time until more people realize the simple fact for why all the commotion and fuss. It's the thread title, stupid!! Talk about perception and being pointless, OMG!! If we want to be scientifically minded, then change the title, if we only want opinions, change the title, please!! If we want all kinds of trolls, well then, leave it alone..

 

[PENG]

I'm a little tempted to try out the Emo 5/7ch Class D whenever it comes out, but I know I'd be losing some power in that deal in addition to those issues. Still, a compact, efficient/cool running amp sounds appealing, especially if it gets rid of my hum/hiss issues.

If it is a mechanical hum you are hearing you will hear it regardless. I know some people said the ATI amps didn't hum but I think either their room ambient noise was relatively high, or they were not too sensitive to the lower (e.g. 2nd) harmonics of the AC supply line frequency. Outlaw's amps seem to have larger (kVA) transformers than Emo's on kVA/rated output watt basis, so it is likely that their amps especially their huge multichannel ones will have a louder mechanical hum. Poor AC line quality could make things worse too but I would bet it is mostly in the transformer design/construction. For the same rated output, class D amps should have much smaller power supply so I bet they will hum more quietly.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm just about positive you know that I'm not against DBT. I support it even but I haven't seen one performed. Given that I've gone a little out of my way to listen to different speakers, I'd like to think that those experiences carry some validity.

Well, I am the anti-audio-DBT troll which ADTG (and perhaps PENG) is referring to. DBTs are the best known way to test the effectiveness of anti-pimple creams, but for audio, well, you can't really appreciate how useless they are for testing ability to discern subtlety until you participate in a few.

 

[Swerd]

Well, I am the anti-audio-DBT troll which ADTG (and perhaps PENG) is referring to. DBTs are the best known way to test the effectiveness of anti-pimple creams, but for audio, well, you can't really appreciate how useless they are for testing ability to discern subtlety until you participate in a few.

I have been trying to ignore this thread, as I believe it is a massive time waster. It's no better than a thread about bi-wiring, another well-beaten dead horse. It's a cloudy wet Sunday morning and I have nothing better to do than read this thread and get caught up in the abundant nonsense I see.

Irv – I can't disagree more with you. Because listener's attitudes, beliefs, and expectations play such a large role in their perceptions, blind testing is ESSENTIAL to determine whether people can actually discern subtle differences because of what they actually hear, as opposed to what they believe they hear. You can convince yourself of just about anything with or without scientific method. But as soon as you declare things, such as you said above, I will steadfastly maintain that no one can convince others they can hear subtle differences between amplifiers or other devices unless the tests were properly controlled and done under blind conditions.

Sense of smell is a very poor analogy for hearing and hearing perception. Compared to other mammals (such as dogs), the sense of smell in humans (and all primates) is weak. The part of our brains devoted to interpreting sound and speech, the auditory cortex, is enormous compared to the tiny part devoted to interpreting smells. As primate brains grew larger and became specialized in sight and sound, something had to give, and that was the sense of smell.

Pet Peeve – People insist on using the abbreviation DBT for blind testing. It is extremely important that listeners be blind during these tests, as in a single blind test. It is much less important that the testers also be blind, as in a double blind test, unless they are dishonest or inept. Stop writing DBT when you mean blind testing. I actually remember reading a post that claimed that double blind tests were twice as good as single blind tests. Whether the poster was a moron or a troll makes little difference to me.

 

[PENG]

Well, I am the anti-audio-DBT troll which ADTG (and perhaps PENG) is referring to.

No, not me, not at all. I have never participated in any DBT but have done my own SBT and I believe SBT is good enough. It does seem to me more often than not, people are a little harsh on the DBT "trolls", I only mean relatively speaking. Jokes aside, most of them aren't trolls as such, may be simply too passionate and a little extreme at times. To me if someone reports hearing night and day kind of difference then there isn't much point bringing up the need to volume match to 1 dB, let along DBT.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Take ADTG for example. I don't remember him mentioning any type of blind testing but I trust he can tell the difference between a Salon II and an Infinity Primus like every f^%&ing time! I'll put money on it!

Salon2 vs P362 is too easy.

 

[Alex2507]

if someone reports hearing night and day kind of difference then there isn't much point bringing up the need to volume match to 1 dB, let alone DBT.

This is great. I just had this exact situation occur after swapping out a blown Infinity PS10 plate amp for a Marantz MA700 monoblock. I liked the sound so much after just seconds of play that I tore into the sub's healthy twin that resides in the other corner for a similar procedure. This morning at 8:00 AM I announced that I wanted the subs on. The girl said it was too early but she too soon saw that the boomey nature of the plate amps was gone. I did run test tones after both amps got swapped to better understand the difference. But now I have sunk to the very bottom of subjective indignity: "My g/f heard it too".

BTW, in reference to what the girl did hear and what she expected to hear, it was level matched to be in balance with the rest of the H/T speakers.

Well, I am the anti-audio-DBT troll which ADTG (and perhaps PENG) is referring to.

Don't you let their name calling spoil your fun. They're just internet bullies.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As far as DBT, I've been a part of many DBT drug studies because pharmacists are the only ones to know which drug is which.

I have never been part of a professionally sponsored audio SBT or DBT.

When I had my collection of speakers, I did conduct informal speaker SBT (certainly not to pro standard by a long shot).

I have never done BT on solid amps. In my experience (Krell, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Classe, Bryston, Anthem, ATI, Macintosh, NAD, Sunfire, Parasound, Rotel), when level matched close enough, the difference is just too insignificant. Too subtle. You want to hear subtleties, you can have them. But if the difference is too subtle and not significant, why argue over it?

But when someone says there is a night-and-day unequivocal astronomical difference between NAD vs Parasound or Outlaw amps even when level-matched using the same equipment and music source, I have my reservation.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Irv – I can't disagree more with you. Because listener's attitudes, beliefs, and expectations play such a large role in their perceptions, blind testing is ESSENTIAL to determine whether people can actually discern subtle differences because of what they actually hear, as opposed to what they believe they hear. You can convince yourself of just about anything with or without scientific method. But as soon as you declare things, such as you said above, I will steadfastly maintain that no one can convince others they can hear subtle differences between amplifiers or other devices unless the tests were properly controlled and done under blind conditions.

Swerd, chill. I despise blind testing for audio not because I think sighted listening tests are any better, but because I think human audio memory is so poor for such subtleties as exist between electronics that any comparison testing without a reference is useless. (And even then I've never been able to discern differences between amplifiers in immediate comparison tests, sighted or blinded.) The usual accommodation from blind testing advocates, that you can listen as long as you'd like to one alternative, makes matters even worse. In fact, during my comparison shopping some years back I became convinced I couldn't reliably hear the difference between Revel Salon2s and Revel Studio2s, so long as the room wasn't so large as to call out the output capability advantage of the Salon2s, unless I was listening to a recording I made myself. (And even then those two speakers sound remarkably alike. Only Malcolm Frager playing the Chopin Polonaise in A-flat Major gave the Salon2s the nod on a commercial recording.)

As for the SBT versus DBT remarks, whatever. DBTs were a key argument of the ABX philosophy, and I have to admit it was intriguing (until I participated).

 

[lovinthehd]

This is great. I just had this exact situation occur after swapping out a blown Infinity PS10 plate amp for a Marantz MA700 monoblock. I liked the sound so much after just seconds of play that I tore into the sub's healthy twin that resides in the other corner for a similar procedure. This morning at 8:00 AM I announced that I wanted the subs on. The girl said it was too early but she too soon saw that the boomey nature of the plate amps was gone. I did run test tones after both amps got swapped to better understand the difference. But now I have sunk to the very bottom of subjective indignity: "My g/f heard it too".

BTW, in reference to what the girl did hear and what she expected to hear, it was level matched to be in balance with the rest of the H/T speakers.




Don't you let their name calling spoil your fun. They're just internet bullies.

More likely due to the plate amp having a boost built in down low to make up for the driver and/or small box it's in, whereas your MA700 doesn't have such dsp (or at least assume the latter doesn't).