Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Jared J. Crandall]

Yep, and I fully accept that. It's certainly possible the amp affected the sound waves/sound field audibly. However, it's not the only possibility. There is a way to find out...

I have a good analogy for the difference:

To what end? Jared is sharing his experiences on an audio forum, not writing a technical paper for AES. If you're in agreement that there's nothing outrageous in suggesting that his particular amplifier sounds different from a conventional class A/B, that's about as far as it needs to be taken.

To what end? Jared is sharing his experiences on an audio forum, not writing a technical paper for AES. If you're in agreement that there's nothing outrageous in suggesting that his particular amplifier sounds different from a conventional class A/B, that's about as far as it needs to be taken.

Yes, thanks, and I also understand the skepticism. I used to pay a good amount for different cabling, sound dampener for equipment, terminal lube, etc. But I stopped because I could never tell a difference even though I hoped for one; however, with the nad, the difference was apparent and had nothing to do with volume or sparkle, but all sounds were cleaner throughout the hertz spectrum which resulted in a little more magic. I don't think I could hear more detail, but like I said, sounds were cleaner. The difference was apparent enough that I decided to not return the amp in spite of the extra money I'd save. Maybe if I went to another type of class d amp I wouldn't be able to tell or i would have to get even more critical in order to determine, but going from the outlaw/parasound to the nad made a difference that I enjoyed and couldn't deny. A shame we all don't live within the same geographic area so we can exploit the hobby more, ha

 

[Goliath]

But I stopped because I could never tell a difference even though I hoped for one; however, with the nad, the difference was apparent and had nothing to do with volume or sparkle, but all sounds were cleaner throughout the hertz spectrum which resulted in a little more magic.

So you neither level matched nor listened blind, but somehow drew the conclusion that the differences had nothing to do with level matching? Hmmm...

I'll say it again, a small volume change can lead to sound quality changes. Not just the volume. Sound quality changes. You don't seem interested in actually finding out.

 

[Steve81]

This can happen when the "listening" is uncontrolled. We won't know either way, but there is no harm in discussing the possible causes in a technical thread about "hearing" differences.

It's pointless to discuss because a difference can exist. If we discuss here the differences heard among various speakers, nobody is demanding a DBT because we know for certain that differences can be there. With something like wire, where differences shouldn't exist assuming everything is in order, asking how the comparison was made has some utility.

 

[Jared J. Crandall]

So you neither level matched nor listened blind, but somehow drew the conclusion that the differences had nothing to do with level matching? Hmmm...

Oh...wow....maybe I had the volume up higher on one amp over the other.... Or maybe I put on a cooler movie which had better sound. Doik , I should have known. This is getting a little ridiculous. Please read my past comments.

 

[Goliath]

Oh...wow....maybe I had the volume up higher on one amp over the other.... Or maybe I put on a cooler movie which had better sound. Doik , I should have known. This is getting a little ridiculous. Please read my past comments.

I read your past comments and it's clear you don't understand how volume changes can affect perception of sound. If you want to remain in ignorance then be my guest.

 

[Jared J. Crandall]

I read your past comments and it's clear you don't understand how volume changes can affect perception of sound. If you want to remain in ignorance then be my guest.

Yeah, sorry, I was a little harsh. What I have been saying is that I did volume match with the pre pro, however, regardless of the volume, the sound was cleaner. Through my experience, my conclusion is that amps can make a difference but of course depending on the settings . I cannot notice differences between my parasound a52 and my outlaw, but I did notice with my nad. I completely notice amplfiier changes when using headphones. My speakers aren't good enough to allow those differences to be apparent with the nad, but maybe the speakers aren't good enough--or my ears arent--to notice a difference between the a52 and 7125. I think the question should be: is there a sound difference from amps with MY equipment, or will I be able to hear the difference--a perception issue. Just my two cents

 

[Goliath]

It's pointless to discuss because a difference can exist. If we discuss here the differences heard among various speakers, nobody is demanding a DBT because we know for certain that differences can be there.

It's not pointless if it's relevant to the topic. Otherwise why even allow such pretense if it's going to be disruptive to ... a few people?

With something like wire, where differences shouldn't exist assuming everything is in order, asking how the comparison was made has some utility.

Well "can you hear a difference.... in amplifiers?". Whether it's amps, wires, DAC's, or widgets, matters not - any comparison requires context.

And wires can affect sound too. Not just sound, but also audiophile minds.

 

[Goliath]

Yeah, sorry, I was a little harsh. What I have been saying is that I did volume match with the pre pro, however, regardless of the volume, the sound was cleaner. Through my experience, my conclusion is that amps can make a difference but of course depending on the settings

How do you know the volumes were matched? Did you confirm? Via multimeter across the terminals? Right, you didn't. That was a rhetorical.

Volume matching is done electrically, not acoustically. It cannot be done with an SPL meter or Audyssey.

 

[Steve81]

It's not pointless if it's relevant to the topic. Otherwise why even allow such pretense if it's going to be disruptive to ... a few people?

It's pointless in the context of bothering a member who gave his opinion that his amp sounds different, when it is indeed quite possible for it to sound different. Maybe he's the victim of bias, maybe he heard the results of spectral tilt. We don't know. We will never know, given that most people don't perform DBTs because some guy on the internet told them they needed to.

And wires can affect sound too.

Indeed, hence why I specifically stated "assuming everything is in order".

PS: Just to be crystal clear: this thread is here to ask people if they've heard differences among various amplifiers. It's not an open invitation for you to harass those who say they have heard a difference, stating their opinions aren't valid if they haven't performed a level matched blind comparison proctored by some Floyd Toole or some other authority you approve of. If you want to keep it up, I don't mind helping you find the exit.

 

[Goliath]

It's pointless in the context of bothering a member who gave his opinion that his amp sounds different, when it is indeed quite possible for it to sound different. Maybe he's the victim of bias, maybe he heard the results of spectral tilt. We don't know. We will never know, given that most people don't perform DBTs because some guy on the internet told them they needed to.

Whether he is bothered or not is not my concern. This is a discussion forum so naturally the topic is open for discussion (from all sides).

If you don't want to discuss controversial subjects that may bother you then simply don't participate. No one is forcing you.

 

[Steve81]

The discussion will continue with or without you.

My thoughts exactly...

Whether he is bothered or not is not my concern.

I would suggest taking some time to think about that statement.

 

[Steve81]

A shame we all don't live within the same geographic area so we can exploit the hobby more, ha

No doubt; the occasions I've had to meet other forum members have been fun & enlightening.

 

[PENG]

Something worth keeping in mind regarding Jared's amplifier:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/amp-classes.htm


Suffice it to say, real differences are indeed quite possible with Class D amps.

Agree, I won't buy such 7 channel class D amps because I think there is a good chance they will result in sound that may not be as accurate as A/AB or higher end two channel class D amps. The M27 is actually relatively cheap on $/W basis but you may just get what you pay for, but in the end if Jared like the way it sounds then he has a winner.

 

[Steve81]

Agree, I won't buy such 7 channel class D amps because I think there is a good chance they will result in sound that may not be as accurate as A/AB or higher end two channel class D amps.

I'm a little tempted to try out the Emo 5/7ch Class D whenever it comes out, but I know I'd be losing some power in that deal in addition to those issues. Still, a compact, efficient/cool running amp sounds appealing, especially if it gets rid of my hum/hiss issues.

 

[jinjuku]

Can you give us more details regarding the listening test? Single blind, double blind, Mushra/Triangle?

Level matching method? Quick-switched, or slow-switched? Music selection, number of trials? Etc? Was this a proctored blind test, or performed by yourself?

Sure. There was tweeter hiss with the Parasound. With the Crown you would have thought the amp was turned off.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you neither level matched nor listened blind, but somehow drew the conclusion that the differences had nothing to do with level matching? Hmmm...

I'll say it again, a small volume change can lead to sound quality changes. Not just the volume. Sound quality changes. You don't seem interested in actually finding out.

Nothing anyone could ever say or even prove via the best controlled studies could convince some people.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[Irvrobinson]

Nothing anyone could ever say or even prove via the best controlled studies could convince some people.

And nothing like an audible-differences-in-amps thread to bring out the DBT trolls and get one or two of them a time-out for bad behavior.

 

[Speedskater]

From Siegfried Linkwitz, new thoughts on power amplifiers and distortion.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Amplifiers-etc/Distortion.htm

 

[Irvrobinson]

From Siegfried Linkwitz, new thoughts on power amplifiers and distortion.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Amplifiers-etc/Distortion.htm

I know that there can be sonic and imaging differences between different amplifier designs, even when their frequency responses into the load are identical.

Well, SL, those are stronger words than I've ever been willing to use. I think (and personally believe) that there can be sonic differences between amplifiers that have similar frequency responses, but "knowing" is a different ball game.

Interesting how people who measure and design for a living, like Gene and SL, are willing to make statements like that quote, but people who don't measure for a living are convinced amps all sound the same because that's what they've read or experienced in some DBTs. Hmmm.

 

[Alex2507]

... a time-out for bad behavior.

A man spanking. Just what we needed to liven the place up.

So I got a different-amp-sounds-different story. The plate amp melted on one of my cheapo subs. I used an external amp instead and thought I was going to take some crude measurements to at least see what the response looked like. I heard it for like 10 seconds and I just knew. The sub that hadn't blown up got it's amp disabled so that I could do the same procedure. Measurements did verify a difference and improved response. Night and day difference even at low spl's.

Does the lack of a DBT invalidate my findings? Not to me. I've heard it before with speaker amps too but that was subtle. Seriously, you don't need a DBT to use your ears. Have a little faith that it's not just air in between them.