Fluance Signature Series Speakers Preview

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not sure there are any driver issues out of the ordinary. I just haven't measured them yet. So far, I'm not seeing anything I wouldn't expect in a speaker with this much cabinetry in this price range. It's pretty remarkable they can offer all of this for what they're asking. From the looks of the pained expression on the face of the UPS driver, these puppies aren't cheap to ship. And the cabinets are really substantial and nicely done. Plus, they ship in double boxes with lots of protection inside.
Dennis,
One comment I read about these is that they are too tall - as in the tweeter is above ear level for normal seating. I don't know if the crossover can reasonably assist with that or not, but wanted to call it to your attention up front.
Looking forward to hearing your experiences with these!!!
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
The tweeter center is about 3" higher than normal for a tower, but that's no problem. I'll just measure a little below the tweeter center. And it wouldn't make much difference even if I measured on the tweeter axis, assuming I get everything else right. It all has to do with Greeks and geometry and normal listening distances.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
One more thing before I hit the sack. I can certainly understand how wiring issues like this can happen, particularly when you're sourcing from China where on-site inspection might be difficult. But according to Gene, Fluance is fully aware of the problem and has reached out for help in fixing it. Yet--they're still shipping speakers. The ones I received today were ordered just a couple of days ago, and they're clearly from the defective stock. I can't figure out why they would want to increase their exposure to expensive returns. Something here isn't quite adding up.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
One more thing before I hit the sack. I can certainly understand how wiring issues like this can happen, particularly when you're sourcing from China where on-site inspection might be difficult. But according to Gene, Fluance is fully aware of the problem and has reached out for help in fixing it. Yet--they're still shipping speakers. The ones I received today were ordered just a couple of days ago, and they're clearly from the defective stock. I can't figure out why they would want to increase their exposure to expensive returns. Something here isn't quite adding up.
I'm thinking they are betting that the majority of buyers will never notice. They have been shipping long enough to know what % of sales have been returned. That number will go up a little, but the average buyer on Amazon will not notice (despite my "review" calling them into question).
They have no legal obligation to do a "recall" and can use the fact that customers had a trial period to return them if they were defective but didn't as verification that they must be good. I suspect they are likely all defective thus far but Fluance can maintain that only some of them were defective and minimize their losses.
You mention wiring issue, but wasn't there also an absence of a HPF for the mid, or is that due to an incorrect connection?

One thing that would be useful is a way to determine for certain whether or not a pair of speakers was mis-wired. Do you know a way? I was thinking that maybe connection a 9v battery to the terminals and determining whether the mid and woof went the same direction or not and what they should do if properly wired. Could that work?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I took Dennis Murphy's before & after frequency response curves of the Fluance towers, made their background transparent, and layered them on top of each other.

Even though both traces are red, it's easy to see the differences in the roughly 250–2000 Hz range. The curve that is higher in most of that range, 250–1000 Hz, was done after switching polarity.

Below 250 Hz or above 2000 Hz, both plots are essentially the same.
Untitled.png
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
FluanceRedo.png
FluanceListeningDistance.png
I spent the weekend seeing whether the Fluance drivers lent themselves to an all-out redesign of the crossover network. As it turns out, the drivers are beautifully behaved over a usable portion of their frequency response. It did take quite a few components (18, including 4 inexpensive resistors and one high-quality capacitor that could be harvested from the existing board), but the result was a very smooth response with excellent phase integration and a benign impedance curve that varies smoothly between 4 and 8 ohms. I've attached the on-axis plot. The off-axis response is also very smooth on out to 45 degrees. The design is optimized for a listening distance of 10 - 12 feet. At that distance, the simulations show that the slightly elevated portion between 300 Hz and 1200 Hz flattens out. I've also attached that simulation. As I explained in my previous post, you can ignore the portion below 200 Hz both plots, where room effects come into play. If you compare the plots with the previous ones, you can see that the average sensitivity hasn't changed. These measurements weren't scaled for the standard sensitivity spec, but I would estimate that it's around 88 dB, which is excellent. I think the sound is first class, with excellent bass power handling. The woofers don't go much below 40 Hz, which is the trade-off for high sensitivity, but it's certainly good enough to rock out and alienate the neighbors.

All of this is a little academic, since not many people would want to undertake the mod. I'll try and trace through the stock circuit today (always a pain with printed circuit boards) and see whether there's a simpler approach that might be implemented in the field.
 
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J

Justin Zimmerman

Audiophyte
I spent the weekend seeing whether the Fluance drivers lent themselves to an all-out redesign of the crossover network. As it turns out, the drivers are beautifully behaved over a usable portion of their frequency response. It did take quite a few components (18, including 4 inexpensive resistors and one high-quality capacitor that could be harvested from the existing board), but the result was a very smooth response with excellent phase integration and a benign impedance curve that varies smoothly between 4 and 8 ohms. I've attached the on-axis plot. The off-axis response is also very smooth on out to 45 degrees. The design is optimized for a listening distance of 10 - 12 feet. At that distance, the simulations show that the slightly elevated portion between 300 Hz and 1200 Hz flattens out. I've also attached that simulation. As I explained in my previous post, you can ignore the portion below 200 Hz both plots, where room effects come into play. If you compare the plots with the previous ones, you can see that the average sensitivity hasn't changed. These measurements weren't scaled for the standard sensitivity spec, but I would estimate that it's around 88 dB, which is excellent. I think the sound is first class, with excellent bass power handling. The woofers don't go much below 40 Hz, which is the trade-off for high sensitivity, but it's certainly good enough to rock out and alienate the neighbors.

All of this is a little academic, since not many people would want to undertake the mod. I'll try and trace through the stock circuit today (always a pain with printed circuit boards) and see whether there's a simpler approach that might be implemented in the field.

Dennis,

This is great news! I can't wait to get my hands on my Dennis Murphy Signature Series speakers
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Interesting. What a difference a crossover can make!

I had guessed, after seeing the earlier plots, that the mid range driver might be too ragged for salvage. But not so. Your simulated FR curve shows that mid running from about 600 to 3000 Hz. The woofer-mid range slopes look like 4th order, and the mid range-tweeter look shallower, 2nd order. Is that about right?
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
I spent the weekend seeing whether the Fluance drivers lent themselves to an all-out redesign of the crossover network. As it turns out, the drivers are beautifully behaved over a usable portion of their frequency response. It did take quite a few components (18, including 4 inexpensive resistors and one high-quality capacitor that could be harvested from the existing board), but the result was a very smooth response with excellent phase integration and a benign impedance curve that varies smoothly between 4 and 8 ohms. I've attached the on-axis plot. The off-axis response is also very smooth on out to 45 degrees. The design is optimized for a listening distance of 10 - 12 feet. At that distance, the simulations show that the slightly elevated portion between 300 Hz and 1200 Hz flattens out. I've also attached that simulation. As I explained in my previous post, you can ignore the portion below 200 Hz both plots, where room effects come into play. If you compare the plots with the previous ones, you can see that the average sensitivity hasn't changed. These measurements weren't scaled for the standard sensitivity spec, but I would estimate that it's around 88 dB, which is excellent. I think the sound is first class, with excellent bass power handling. The woofers don't go much below 40 Hz, which is the trade-off for high sensitivity, but it's certainly good enough to rock out and alienate the neighbors.

All of this is a little academic, since not many people would want to undertake the mod. I'll try and trace through the stock circuit today (always a pain with printed circuit boards) and see whether there's a simpler approach that might be implemented in the field.
Dennis would the 18-element crossover be an expensive undertaking? I am sure many would consider doing that depending on costs. Can you tell us a little more about the crossover you designed? Is it 2nd order, 4th order, symmetrical, and etc. Am always curious about the crossover design. Things are really getting interesting.

Cheers,

Phil
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Dennis would the 18-element crossover be an expensive undertaking? I am sure many would consider doing that depending on costs. Can you tell us a little more about the crossover you designed? Is it 2nd order, 4th order, symmetrical, and etc. Am always curious about the crossover design. Things are really getting interesting.

Cheers,

Phil

The slopes are basically, sort of, 4th order. That means they sum flat with direct polarity. But you usually have to futz with the acoustic slopes to get that to work because of differences in the acoustic centers of the drivers. So you shouldn't expect to see perfect 24 dB slopes in any Linkwitz 4th order unless the acoustic centers of the drivers have been physically aligned. I'll have to cost out the crossover.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
The slopes are basically, sort of, 4th order. That means they sum flat with direct polarity. But you usually have to futz with the acoustic slopes to get that to work because of differences in the acoustic centers of the drivers. So you shouldn't expect to see perfect 24 dB slopes in any Linkwitz 4th order unless the acoustic centers of the drivers have been physically aligned. I'll have to cost out the crossover.
Thanks Dennis for the info. It sounds like the crossover is a bit complex. Looking forward to seeing what it would cost. We really appreciate what you do for all of us. I really enjoy learning more about loudspeaker design. Especially, the crossovers. :):):)

Cheers,

Phil
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Dennis,

This is great news! I can't wait to get my hands on my Dennis Murphy Signature Series speakers
Smart man for jumping on the opportunity. Although a bit of a gamble that the drivers would prove so capable!
It would be great if Paul effects an equivalent redesign for Fluance's production; however, I worry that Fluance will look to cut corners on costs and not allow Paul to get the full benefit that Dennis saw. Time will tell!

Congratulations on getting what may possibly be a uniquely good speaker for your $, and thanks to you and Dennis for vicariously supporting our addictions!;)
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
You know, if Fluance allows an equivalent design to become standard and keeps the price down, they have the potential to change their image from budget value to high sound quality value.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Here is the Fluance crossover with reversed mid range polarity (Red) compared to the new Dennis Murphy crossover (Green).
Red Green.png


Next is the original Fluance crossover (Red) and the new Dennis Murphy crossover (Green).
Original Fluance Red Murphy Green.png

I hope the labels make things clear. I did have some difficulty getting the image sizes to match to get a clean overlap. It isn't perfect, but I did the best I could.
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Here are the old crossover (Red) and new crossover (Green) overlapped.
Thanks. I thought you would take the hint when I switched the new plot to green. People should keep in mind that you're comparing the new crossover with the old speaker, but with reversed connections to the midrange. So this isn't how a stock Fluance measures.
 
J

Justin Zimmerman

Audiophyte
Smart man for jumping on the opportunity. Although a bit of a gamble that the drivers would prove so capable!
It would be great if Paul effects an equivalent redesign for Fluance's production; however, I worry that Fluance will look to cut corners on costs and not allow Paul to get the full benefit that Dennis saw. Time will tell!

Congratulations on getting what may possibly be a uniquely good speaker for your $, and thanks to you and Dennis for vicariously supporting our addictions!;)
It was a risk I was willing to take, given that I really like my current XL7Fs alot, and I had to believe that the new ones could be made to be even better. That and it isn't every day you get a chance to own a set of Dennis Murphy speakers for this price. Even after I factor in the additional costs, I have to think this speaker will hit above it's price point.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
It was a risk I was willing to take, given that I really like my current XL7Fs alot, and I had to believe that the new ones could be made to be even better. That and it isn't every day you get a chance to own a set of Dennis Murphy speakers for this price. Even after I factor in the additional costs, I have to think this speaker will hit above it's price point.
Well, I hope it works out. I just ordered your parts. Even with my commercial discount, the damage was $135/pr with shipping. I used higher quality parts than in the stock crossover (except for one film capacitor, which I borrowed from the board), but nothing more expensive than I use in my Affordable Accuracy speaker. I'm not expecting any contracts from Fluance.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Here is the Fluance crossover with reversed mid range polarity (Red) compared to the new Dennis Murphy crossover (Green).
View attachment 17753

Next is the original Fluance crossover (Red) and the new Dennis Murphy crossover (Green).
View attachment 17754
I hope the labels make things clear. I did have some difficulty getting the image sizes to match to get a clean overlap. It isn't perfect, but I did the best I could.
You da man. That really does make the differences clearer. Thanks
 
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