What To Do?

[speakerman39]

As you know, there is a common belief that sealed subs tend to be more punchy and musical while ported are more extended but like most things there are exceptions. My educated guess is that you will like the L12 better, given that your room isn't that big right? The LV12R will for sure be capable of louder bass. Two L12 may just be the ticket for you if you are going to use the system a lot for stereo. I have one E15HP in my second two channel system and I can tell you it blends with the small LS50 smoothly to the point if I close my eyes I can swear there isn't a 15" sub in the room. I do believe the L12 will come close just with much lower output.

Edit: There isn't such thing as E12HP, thanks to Kurt who fixed that for me.

Peng, I am so sorry for the confusion bro. But, I am NOT considering the Rythmik LV12R at all. I was mentioning that many people has said it is a good as the SVS SB2000 but less expensive. What I am trying to ascertain is the comparison between the the L12 and the SB2000.

Furthermore, I am considering cancelling my order for the L12 and getting either the SVS SB2000 or the Hsu ULS-15 MK2. Eventually, I will end up with duals either way I go. Even if keeping my order for the L12.

YOU are correct in that my emphasis is on musicality, but I still need good extension for HT applications. The sad part is, I really like the SB2000 and the ULS-15 MK2. It is a tough call. Had a few chats with Ed Mullen today. HE is convinced that the SB2000 will give my everything I am looking for.

That is, of course, tight, punchy, well-articulated bass that has distinctness in the transients. I want to hear the different notes from the bass player. Heck, I even want to hear the bass players fingers on the strings. Yet, I also want to feel the kick drum hitting me in the chest somewhat. It is NOT so much about quantity but more about quality.

I am convinced both the SB2000 and/or the ULS-15 MK2 can give me just that. Not so sure about the L12. I am re-thinking things somewhat. Money is always the limiting factor. It is a tough call. Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

The SB2000 probably only has a few mm of xmax over the L12. I don't think they are as different as you imagine. Since you can get it and send it back for free, I would do a comparison between the L12 and the SB2000. However, if you threw in the ULS-15 in that comparison, the L12 and SB2000 are definitely going back. One thing I would ask Hsu, Rythmik, and SVS is, since you intend to double up on the subs, how long after the first purchase would they honor the dual drive discount. That will save you a couple bucks if you can get it.

 

[KEW]

As you know, there is a common belief that sealed subs tend to be more punchy and musical while ported are more extended but like most things there are exceptions. My educated guess is that you will like the L12 better, given that your room isn't that big right? The LV12R will for sure be capable of louder bass.

It is interesting that the Rythmik site lists the L12 as a 12" sealed music/HT sub and the LV12R as a 12" rear ported HT sub. The use of the word "music" for the L12 and its absence for the LV12R suggests that Brian doesn't consider the LV12R to be the best choice for music. He impresses me as someone who is very picky and all accounts suggest that the LV12R is very competitive with other ID offerings.

Jman said this in his review:

I have a confession to make; I think music on the LV12R sounds wonderful. Why am I saying it like that? Because I've always believed acoustic suspension designs trump bass reflex when it comes to music (and I still do). Rare is the ported subwoofer which can satisfy my demanding musical requirements, but the LV12R did just that. Brian Ding, the architect behind Rythmik's subwoofers, should be credited for this; he didn't forsake music for home theater, a failing far too many others succumb to.


Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...mik-lv12r-subwoofer-review.html#ixzz3xx3Xdkxk

 

[speakerman39]

The SB2000 probably only has a few mm of xmax over the L12. I don't think they are as different as you imagine. Since you can get it and send it back for free, I would do a comparison between the L12 and the SB2000. However, if you threw in the ULS-15 in that comparison, the L12 and SB2000 are definitely going back. One thing I would ask Hsu, Rythmik, and SVS is, since you intend to double up on the subs, how long after the first purchase would they honor the dual drive discount. That will save you a couple bucks if you can get it.

Shady, I have already checked to see what discount(s) are available if ordering duals. Still NOT to sure which way I am going to go. But, it is really looking like I am getting closer. Had several conversations with Ed Mullen yesterday via email. Really like what he had to say. Either way, it really is a tough decision.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

It is interesting that the Rythmik site lists the L12 as a 12" sealed music/HT sub and the LV12R as a 12" rear ported HT sub. The use of the word "music" for the L12 and its absence for the LV12R suggests that Brian doesn't consider the LV12R to be the best choice for music. He impresses me as someone who is very picky and all accounts suggest that the LV12R is very competitive with other ID offerings.

Jman said this in his review:

Kurt, thanks for the link. It sure was an interesting read. The 12" driver sure looks to be awful cheap. That is one thing that really bugs me about the L12. The drivers used in both the SB2000 and/or ULS-15 are better from what I can tell. Have to move up to the Rythmik F12 to be more on par. The sad part, however, is that the F12 costs more than the ULS-15. Not too sure about the L12 anymore.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Don't hold the appearance of the driver against the L12. All of these drivers will produce very linear playback, up to a certain point. That point should be somewhere around the driver's xmax, at least for deep frequencies. I would guess the L12's xmax might be around half an inch. The SB2000 driver probably isn't much more than that. Honestly, if you are going to run up against the L12's limits, you are probably going to hit the SB2000's limits as well. Within their limits, they should be able to track the signal very closely. Up to that point, they should be very similar, qualitatively. If you are worried about pressing their limits, that is an argument for the ULS. Personally, seeing as how the ULS fully doubles the performance of the SB2000 for only $150 more, I wouldn't even think about this.

 

[PENG]

It is interesting that the Rythmik site lists the L12 as a 12" sealed music/HT sub and the LV12R as a 12" rear ported HT sub. The use of the word "music" for the L12 and its absence for the LV12R suggests that Brian doesn't consider the LV12R to be the best choice for music. He impresses me as someone who is very picky and all accounts suggest that the LV12R is very competitive with other ID offerings.

Jman said this in his review:

Brian is an engineer, while there are always exceptions, engineers typically are not natural salesman. Rythmik's servo technology is probably the main reason for Jman's observation. I think Rythmik's servo is very well done so I am not surprise even ported ones can sound like the sealed ones within their happy range.

 

[PENG]

If the ULS-15 is only $150 more and provides double the output then it is a good deal, but only if you really need the extra headroom. Otherwise, I would just go by the look between the L12 and the SB2000. I mean the external look though. I agree SVS's drivers do tend to look better but with the grilles on that should not be a factor.

 

[KEW]

The 12" driver sure looks to be awful cheap. That is one thing that really bugs me about the L12.

I don't pretend to understand the servo, and I have yet to see a review where they really provide any measurements of what the servo provides (I guess it would be almost impossible to isolate the servo though it seems you could disconnect the wires providing the feedback loop). However, on the Rythmik site we have:

Direct Servo allows the use of a lighter driver which is more efficient so that a very high powered amplifier is not necessary.

From the AH review of the FV15HP:

Most non-servo subwoofers use equalization in one form or another to achieve flat response. In the case of DirectServo subs, the sensor output is representative of actual cone velocity which is used in a feedback loop to achieve flat response in one single gain stage without using equalization. As a result, the response is very flat and consistent. Most customers can get good results without going through complex tuning process. According to Rythmik, only customers with worse than average room acoustics need a dedicated EQ. While attempts to lower distortion using passive means require individually examining all the speaker components which contribute non-linearities, the advantage of the servo-feedback approach is that it can minimize several sources of distortion with the servo feedback alone. This helps to not only lower the distortion, but also to simplify both the driver and box design. One should note the use of a servo, while advantageous, does not create the ability to move more air than the inherent electrical and mechanical limitations of the driver, box and power amplifier combination used. The servo optimizes the physical (T/S) parameters to offer the cleanest possible physical output while achieving the best frequency and time domain response.

So my take away is that the servo allows effective reduction of distortion such that the driver doesn't need to be designed to be especially great. Rythmik seems to get great performance out of the FV12R despite the basic driver, so it would be a waste to add cost to the sub by using an expensive driver designed to reduce problems which the servo has already eliminated!

 

[3db]

Yeah, I been in touch with Ed Mullen. Just have a tough decision to make. Going to sleep on it tonight and look at it tomorrow. Things are surely getting interesting to say the least.

Cheers,

Phil

Phil,

If it helps,,, I have the LV12-R and have it set for max extension and even in that mode, its tight enough to be used for music. I hear pitch changes in bass in movie soundtracks, thats how articulate this sub is and not because it I'm over driving it. I'm about midway on the volume control and on the bass setting on the AVR. For shits n giggles, I cranked the sub volume on a bass scene and rattled an empty pop can off the kitchen counter which is directly over the HT area upstairs.

I seriously wouldn't beat this one to death. The SB2000 may have more output but won't dig as deep the L12. If your room isn't all that big, you'll never run into the limits of the L12 let alone SB2000. As far as articulate bass goes, my money is on the L12 over the SB2000.

Read the reviews I posted on Rythmik subs in the official Rythmik sub thread also found in this subwoofer forum. Rythmik makes great articulate subs.

 

[speakerman39]

Don't hold the appearance of the driver against the L12. All of these drivers will produce very linear playback, up to a certain point. That point should be somewhere around the driver's xmax, at least for deep frequencies. I would guess the L12's xmax might be around half an inch. The SB2000 driver probably isn't much more than that. Honestly, if you are going to run up against the L12's limits, you are probably going to hit the SB2000's limits as well. Within their limits, they should be able to track the signal very closely. Up to that point, they should be very similar, qualitatively. If you are worried about pressing their limits, that is an argument for the ULS. Personally, seeing as how the ULS fully doubles the performance of the SB2000 for only $150 more, I wouldn't even think about this.

I agree here Shady. YOU make some very good points. However, the ULS-15 would actually be $270 more than the L12. If I go this route, then I will only be able to get a single for the time being. Moreover, the SB2000 would only be $121.05 more. Both, are so tempting. Really appreciate ALL of YOUR input as YOU have been quite helpful.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

If the ULS-15 is only $150 more and provides double the output then it is a good deal, but only if you really need the extra headroom. Otherwise, I would just go by the look between the L12 and the SB2000. I mean the external look though. I agree SVS's drivers do tend to look better but with the grilles on that should not be a factor.

Peng, the ULS-15 actually would be $270 more than the L12. As mentioned previously, if I go this route, then I can ONLY get one for the time being. The SB2000 would only be $121.05 more. Both are rather tempting. However, I can get a second L12 for only $479 more. Just a tough call.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I don't pretend to understand the servo, and I have yet to see a review where they really provide any measurements of what the servo provides (I guess it would be almost impossible to isolate the servo though it seems you could disconnect the wires providing the feedback loop). However, on the Rythmik site we have:



From the AH review of the FV15HP:


So my take away is that the servo allows effective reduction of distortion such that the driver doesn't need to be designed to be especially great. Rythmik seems to get great performance out of the FV12R despite the basic driver, so it would be a waste to add cost to the sub by using an expensive driver designed to reduce problems which the servo has already eliminated!

Thanks Kurt as I find this info very helpful. So, basically is there is less distortion then that improves SQ, no? I do NOT fully understand the servo technology either. I will admit, though, sure find the servo rather interesting.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[PENG]

Peng, the ULS-15 actually would be $270 more than the L12. As mentioned previously, if I go this route, then I can ONLY get one for the time being. The SB2000 would only be $121.05 more. Both are rather tempting. However, I can get a second L12 for only $479 more. Just a tough call.

Cheers,

Phil

I mentioned $150 based on Shady's post, may be he knows how/where to get that deal.

 

[PENG]

Thanks Kurt as I find this info very helpful. So, basically is there is less distortion then that improves SQ, no? I do NOT fully understand the servo technology either. I will admit, though, sure find the servo rather interesting.

Cheers,

Phil

Servo systems in general rely on feedback such that the controller would continuously compare the output to the input and any errors detected will be corrected by modifying the input to reduce the error. The Servo technology specific to Rythmik's subwoofer amps is of course better described at the Rythmik website: Servo

 

[shadyJ]

If the ULS-15 is only $150 more and provides double the output then it is a good deal, but only if you really need the extra headroom. Otherwise, I would just go by the look between the L12 and the SB2000. I mean the external look though. I agree SVS's drivers do tend to look better but with the grilles on that should not be a factor.

Lol no one really needs the headroom. Headroom is rarely about need. Headroom is a craving, a desire! A Hyundai Excel will take you to the grocery store just as well as a Porsche, but which would you rather have?

 

[PENG]

Lol no one really needs the headroom. Headroom is rarely about need. Headroom is a craving, a desire! A Hyundai Excel will take you to the grocery store just as well as a Porsche, but which would you rather have?

I meant psychological needs but I didn't want to say it, thanks for call me out..

 

[shadyJ]

I don't pretend to understand the servo, and I have yet to see a review where they really provide any measurements of what the servo provides (I guess it would be almost impossible to isolate the servo though it seems you could disconnect the wires providing the feedback loop). However, on the Rythmik site we have:



From the AH review of the FV15HP:


So my take away is that the servo allows effective reduction of distortion such that the driver doesn't need to be designed to be especially great. Rythmik seems to get great performance out of the FV12R despite the basic driver, so it would be a waste to add cost to the sub by using an expensive driver designed to reduce problems which the servo has already eliminated!

KEW, the Rythmik's chief qualitative advantage seem to be lowering second harmonic distortion. If you take a look at the FFTs of the CEA-2010 bursts, you see second harmonic is always very low: here and here. There has been an argument made that the second harmonic is not a big deal, but personally I will take all the reduction in distortion I can get, so it is a good thing if you ask me.

 

[shadyJ]

I seriously wouldn't beat this one to death. The SB2000 may have more output but won't dig as deep the L12. If your room isn't all that big, you'll never run into the limits of the L12 let alone SB2000. As far as articulate bass goes, my money is on the L12 over the SB2000.

I think the SB2000 will have more deep bass capability, although the Rythmik subs more easily hit lower frequencies because the servo mechanism seems to tune them lower. However deep bass capability is all about moving air, and I would bet the SB2000 has the advantage here. The Rythmik might actually have more midbass output, due to its driver's light moving mass. As for articulation, I don't know, but the Peerless XXLS platform which the SVS 2000 subs use is an extremely linear driver with very low inductance. I bet at nominal levels with ordinary music, you would not be able to tell the difference between the two. At higher drive levels, the difference may become audible, as their distortion character emerges and sets them apart. It would be an interesting comparison. I think a ULS will be better behaved than either at nominal levels simply because the VC does not have to move far from the magnetic gap to achieve the same output. It will also have more linear output capability than both of them put together.

 

[speakerman39]

UPDATE:

Well got up this morning and made up my mind that if my L12 was not going to be shipped very soon then I was going to go ahead and cancel it. Funny thing is, got an email from Rythmik that it has already shipped out. Not sure if that is a good omen or not. As such, guess my dilemma has been solved-or has it?

Having a few issues with my Citi-Bank Visa as we speak. Mailed them a payment via US mail and it looks like it has been lost in the mail. Usually pay using my checking account. But, for some reason I sent a money order instead. BIG MISTAKE! It will NEVER happen again.

I plan to transfer some balances around to avoid paying interest. Once I do that, then I will order the SB2000. May be able to do a direct comparison on the L12 AND the SB2000 respectively. That way, I will decide which one I want to keep OR send BOTH back, no?

If I choose to send BOTH back, then I will no doubt have to eat the shipping back on the L12. At that time, I will then order the Hsu ULS-15 MK2. On the other hand, if I keep either of the L12/SB2000 I will then order my 2nd. So, it ALL depends on what goes on between the L12 and the SB2000.

Lastly, if I do end up ordering the ULS-15 MK2 there is NO way I sending it back. In other words, I would be stuck with it regardless. To be honest, I would rather have dual ULS-15 MK2 but just not able to do that financially right now. Could get a single, but the L12 has already shipped. Not going to be wasting a lot of money on return shipping.

Just would like to thank you ALL that has helped me make this decision. You ALL have been so helpful. That is what makes this hobby so much fun. Lots more to learn. Physics is fascinating!

Cheers,

Phil