What To Do?

[KenM10759]

I'm well aware that it's the shape of my room that is the source of the dead spot with my little sub, and confident that only a second sub can solve it.

My preference for moving to the SB2000 is exactly as shadyj describes. As compared to the SB1000 it's just so much more "musical" and I wouldn't have thought there would be that much difference. But there is.

 

[KEW]

I certainly cannot criticize a pair of ULS-15's; by all accounts, that will be an excellent musical system. If you want to rationalize the added cost, they will give you more flexibility should you end up in a larger room down the road.
Hsu did do a smart thing with the redesign and dropping the price from $1105 to $850 (price w/shipping). I don't know if he was watching his competition that closely or if it was just lucky timing, but when PSA discontinued their XS series - XS15 @ $750 shipped and XS15se @ $800 - in favor of their S1500 at $1000 (plus, PSA has free returns), it left a big hole in the under $1000 15" sealed sub market which Hsu slid right into!
Tom V. of PSA said no one was buying the XS series once he introduced the S1500 with the ICE amps...and I believe he sold his last batch of XS15se (which had the advantage of great measurements in Data-Bass) for $750 (I got a pair for $1350) and still had a hard time moving them!

There - more than you ever wanted to know about the subwoofer market, lol.

 

[fmw]

In my experience larger subwoofers sound better than smaller ones. I would prefer a single bigger one to a pair of smaller ones any day. I don't think response "smoothness" is as important as others do. A pair of bigger ones, of course, will make everyone happy.

 

[KEW]

I don't think response "smoothness" is as important as others do.

It all depends on the room. See Ken's posts about null above.

 

[speakerman39]

I don't think cone material makes a difference for this application. If you were going to cross the sub over extremely high, maybe they would, but that would be crazy, of course, and you would want to be looking at mid-bass drivers at that point. The difference cone composition makes would come about in higher frequencies. As for cast basket vs stamped steel basket, I have read that mostly only makes a difference past a certain amount of excursion. Here is a very good article about this stuff. There are examples of subs which have paper cones and stamped baskets which also have excellent performance. For a higher excursion driver, I would be looking at cast baskets.

As for ringing in SVS's older analogue amps, I don't know about that, but anytime you put in filters, you introduce group delay and phase issues. It doesn't matter if it is analogue or digital. Digital might give you finer control to mitigate these issues. What matters is, is it audible? I would guess not, especially after room acoustics and any equalization has taken their toll. I wouldn't be worried about the SVS subs. If that is a concern, I would definitely go for the SB2000 over the SB1000; when you compare their responses you can see the SB1000 is using a high pass filter, but the SB2000 exhibits a more natural roll-off which looks less interfered with by filters. Note the group delay of the older SB12 NSD which uses a strict high pass filter vs the SB13 Ultra's group delay which doesn't have that stringent low pass filter. It also shows up in the impulse response measurements.

Are 2 ULS-15s overkill in a small apartment? Hell yes! Still, it would be a killer system, I know, because I am listening to such a system right now! Honestly, you would probably be fine with two L12s or SB2000s, but, like I said before, in your choices it is hard to recommend anything else because the ULS's are so badass. In a small room, I bet you would be looking at low distortion even at THX Reference levels, at least for bass. You say the VTF3 mk3 is the best sounding sub you have heard, well I have two VTF3 mk3s, and two ULS-15s, the ULS-15s are definitely the better choice for music.

Shady, I will experiment some with my sub(s) crossover points. In the past, I always seemed to prefer a 90Hz crossover setting as opposed to 80Hz. Of course, now I am in a different room so really not too sure if it will be the same.

The VTF3.3 is NOT the best sub I have ever heard, but rather the best I ever owned. It is very helpful that YOU find the ULS-15 more musical than the VTF3.3. So, the real question is how would the SVS SB2000 compare to the L12?

It looks like I have narrowed it all down to one of (3) subs:

Hsu ULS-15 MK2
Rythmik L12
SVS SB2000

Either way I go, sooner or later I will have duals. Right now I am leaning towards the ULS-15 MK2. But, if I order that one it will be a while before I can get another. I think that I will be happy no matter which way I go. Now, to sort it ALL out! Appreciate YOUR help Shady.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fmw]

It all depends on the room. See Ken's posts about null above.

I don't think it is as important as other do no matter what the room acoustics are. Peaks and valleys in frequency response are more audible above subwoofer frequencies.

 

[speakerman39]

I'm well aware that it's the shape of my room that is the source of the dead spot with my little sub, and confident that only a second sub can solve it.

My preference for moving to the SB2000 is exactly as shadyj describes. As compared to the SB1000 it's just so much more "musical" and I wouldn't have thought there would be that much difference. But there is.

Ken, maybe the difference is not so much in power but in drivers. I am not sure, but it looks like to me the drivers for the SB1000 and the SB2000 are different. I plan to check on that. Thanks for YOUR input.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I certainly cannot criticize a pair of ULS-15's; by all accounts, that will be an excellent musical system. If you want to rationalize the added cost, they will give you more flexibility should you end up in a larger room down the road.
Hsu did do a smart thing with the redesign and dropping the price from $1105 to $850 (price w/shipping). I don't know if he was watching his competition that closely or if it was just lucky timing, but when PSA discontinued their XS series - XS15 @ $750 shipped and XS15se @ $800 - in favor of their S1500 at $1000 (plus, PSA has free returns), it left a big hole in the under $1000 15" sealed sub market which Hsu slid right into!
Tom V. of PSA said no one was buying the XS series once he introduced the S1500 with the ICE amps...and I believe he sold his last batch of XS15se (which had the advantage of great measurements in Data-Bass) for $750 (I got a pair for $1350) and still had a hard time moving them!

There - more than you ever wanted to know about the subwoofer market, lol.

Yeah, no doubt in my mind that Dr. Hsu did his homework. I have got it narrowed down. Right now, the ULS-15 MK2 has my attention. It is a tough choice. Oh well, that is part of life right...????

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

In my experience larger subwoofers sound better than smaller ones. I would prefer a single bigger one to a pair of smaller ones any day. I don't think response "smoothness" is as important as others do. A pair of bigger ones, of course, will make everyone happy.

When you say "larger" are YOU referring to drivers OR cabinets? Right now I am looking at sealed subs where size comes at a price. The reason being, my listening area is rather small. Using duals is really important to me because I prefer to even out the bass response.

By evening out the bass response will not only sound better, but will allow me to keep my volume setting down. I live in an apartment. Unfortunately, the manager lives right below me. However, when she(manager) is gone, then I can rock it out some here and there. At least, that is MY plan......LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[fmw]

When you say "larger" are YOU referring to drivers OR cabinets? Right now I am looking at sealed subs where size comes at a price. The reason being, my listening area is rather small. Using duals is really important to me because I prefer to even out the bass response.

By evening out the bass response will not only sound better, but will allow me to keep my volume setting down. I live in an apartment. Unfortunately, the manager lives right below me. However, when she(manager) is gone, then I can rock it out some here and there. At least, that is MY plan......LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil

Yes larger means both. Sealed subs can certainly be smaller since the enclosure doesn't need to be tuned. But even with sealed subs, enclosure size affects performance. Volume has nothing to do with any of this. You can turn the volume up or down regardless of how many or what kind of sub you choose. If evening out the frequency response is important to you then use two subs. I'm just providing some comment based on experience.

 

[PENG]

YOU know I am wondering why none here is recommending the SVS SB1000 or even the SVS SB2000? I have read several times that many feel as though the Rythmik LV12R is every bit as good as the SB2000 but only cheaper. The SB2000 is $699 whereas the LV12R is $569 shipped! But, it too is out of stock. There is no reason for me to buy the SB2000 if the LV12R is just as good.

Cheers,

Phil

Are you talking about the L12 or LV12R? You have mentioned both in different posts but the two are quite different, one is sealed the other is ported.

 

[speakerman39]

Are you talking about the L12 or LV12R? You have mentioned both in different posts but the two are quite different, one is sealed the other is ported.

I have already ordered the L12. But, have read many say that the LV12R is as good as the SB2000 but for less money. I have been trying to compare how the L12 stacks up against the SB2000. Right now, I am really liking the Hsu ULS-15 MK2. Doing all I can to make a well informed decision. One that I will have to live with. As such, that is why I am being very careful.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KenM10759]

I'd be very surprised if the sealed "light paper cone" L12 and it's 300 watt amp could compete with the SB2000's aluminum cone and 500 watt amp.

 

[speakerman39]

I'd be very surprised if the sealed "light paper cone" L12 and it's 300 watt amp could compete with the SB2000's aluminum cone and 500 watt amp.

Yeah, that is exactly what I am trying to find out. There is no need to back pedal. I want to make a well informed decision here. One that I can live with and not regret.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

I'd be very surprised if the sealed "light paper cone" L12 and it's 300 watt amp could compete with the SB2000's aluminum cone and 500 watt amp.

I don't think cone composition will make a difference. If anything, it will help the Rythmik keep up with the Sb2000 at higher frequencies due to less moving mass. Ordinarily the lower moving mass would also mean a higher Fs, but the Rythmik amplifier technology seems to push the Fs way down. I am guessing the chief difference is the SB2000 will have a bit larger xmax. Also, the Rythmik amp should give the L12 a lower Fs, but that probably won't make a difference for most music.

 

[speakerman39]

I don't think cone composition will make a difference. If anything, it will help the Rythmik keep up with the Sb2000 at higher frequencies due to less moving mass. Ordinarily the lower moving mass would also mean a higher Fs, but the Rythmik amplifier technology seems to push the Fs way down. I am guessing the chief difference is the SB2000 will have a bit larger xmax. Also, the Rythmik amp should give the L12 a lower Fs, but that probably won't make a difference for most music.

Shady, if anything the difference in power will not be a big deal. The reason being, I will never play at reference levels to begin with. At times, I do plan to rock out a bit. But for the most part, moderate levels with be the norm. The power differences are negligible.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KenM10759]

>>The power differences is negligible.<<

Cheers,

Phil

I would think so too. However, given that my SB1000 and a Rythmik L12 are more similar I'll say this: My son and I play music at about the same levels. When I listened to the same music on his and my own systems, the SB2000 was by far the clear winner for overall tone.

 

[speakerman39]

I would think so too. However, given that my SB1000 and a Rythmik L12 are more similar I'll say this: My son and I play music at about the same levels. When I listened to the same music on his and my own systems, the SB2000 was by far the clear winner for overall tone.

Yeah, I been in touch with Ed Mullen. Just have a tough decision to make. Going to sleep on it tonight and look at it tomorrow. Things are surely getting interesting to say the least.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[PENG]

I have already ordered the L12. But, have read many say that the LV12R is as good as the SB2000 but for less money. I have been trying to compare how the L12 stacks up against the SB2000. Right now, I am really liking the Hsu ULS-15 MK2. Doing all I can to make a well informed decision. One that I will have to live with. As such, that is why I am being very careful.

Cheers,

Phil

As you know, there is a common belief that sealed subs tend to be more punchy and musical while ported are more extended but like most things there are exceptions. My educated guess is that you will like the L12 better, given that your room isn't that big right? The LV12R will for sure be capable of louder bass. Two L12 may just be the ticket for you if you are going to use the system a lot for stereo. I have one E15HP in my second two channel system and I can tell you it blends with the small LS50 smoothly to the point if I close my eyes I can swear there isn't a 15" sub in the room. I do believe the L12 will come close just with much lower output.

Edit: There isn't such thing as E12HP, thanks to Kurt who fixed that for me.

 

[KEW]

I have one E15HP in my second two channel system and I can tell you it blends with the small LS50 smoothly to the point if I close my eyes I can swear there isn't a 15" sub in the room. I do believe the L12 will come close just with much lower output.

Fixed it for ya!