Need Guidance buying 5.1 HT Spkrs & Receiver

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Feel free anyone to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but effectively I find that it's far more helpful at lower listening volumes, At lower volumes, it definitely "smoothes" out the sound, but at louder volumes, I personally have trouble distinguishing this from manual setup. It also isn't going to make your speakers any "better" or fix poor speaker/sub placement.
That sounds more like the intended effect of Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. Try turning it off and see if the "smoothness" you refer to remains.

Edit: While I would never suggest buying lesser speakers because Audyssey will fix them, I do believe Audyssey can make recognizable improvements in the sound. The fact that you are not hearing a great difference is a good indication that your speakers and room are not requiring substantial correction.
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
KEW,
Thanks for that link I can use for triangulation and Calculating my ideal speaker height. My math background is embarrassingly lacking :oops:....... I have to run to Home Depot for a parts run real quick and I will delve into doing all the Calculations I can given I am still working on paper having not yet bought everything.

I'm hoping to get the best out of my situation without compromising too much on anything from seating to TV to speaker placement. When I get to doing the rewire later this week or this weekend, I will be able to see how flexible I can be with the mounting position on the walls height wise. I can't get down to ear level but I may have some wiggle room to come down in height some.

I hope to get some good advice from Ascend in addition to all the help here.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Hey Guys,

I have my electrician here whose brother installs HT systems in AZ. He is telling to think twice about buying a Denon AVR. He just put me on the phone with his brother in Arizona to settle our little discussion (awkward situation...lol) and this AV installer guy SWEARS BY YAMAHA and says to buy an RXA740 Yamaha or up to an RXA 1040 if I can afford it. He says the EQ does integrate the sub with YPAO and that Denon vs. Yamaha is more a Chevy vs. Ford taste in equipment argument than any real differences in the technology. I told him as much as I could about the Audyssey technology and he said Yamaha build quality has never let him down and that its room correction and EQ technology is comparable to Denon's Audyessy.

QUESTION:
Can anyone lay it out again for me specifically what the Denon advantage is with the Audyessy especially in a tricky room over the YPAO technology that Yamaha uses??
I really do not know the YPAO system. Certainly Yamaha makes good gear. I have one of their integrated amps, but no EQ system. We do have some installers who frequent this site, and (to my knowledge) they have never said to avoid Denon.
Did the HT installer say anything about why to avoid Denon?

In any case, it seems you are likely to add a second sub in the next year or two. To me, that clinches it for a unit with XT 32. The Yamaha system does not calibrate two subs as SUB EQ (included on any Denon having XT 32) does. In other words, you want a Denon X4000 or better.
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Hey KEW,

The installer was a really nice guy and he wasn't being argumentative nor was I. But was one of those situations where I clearly am not the "AUDIO PROFESSIONAL" in the conversation with a guy who does this for his living. This was the gist of the exchange:
I said, "I understand that the Denon may integrate the sub better and have better EQ technology. Also, I have a funky room acoustically and I want something that can best adjust for that on the fly."

He responded, "Oh I'm not saying Denon makes bad receivers. Denon is a solid brand just that their new receivers are crap at least on the lower end. I've had more out of the box failures with Onkyo and Denon than with Yamaha and I've been doing this for 16 years. Its really just a Chevy vs. Ford debate."
NOTE: He also says he can get me an Installer discount on anything Yamaha. He wasn't pushing it but he did mention this.

And I said, "Well from what I have read, there are a lot of people who feel the Audyessy technology has much better EQ ability than the competing YPAO and I think it also uses the calibration Mic in 8 positions as opposed to just one if you have one of the higher end versions."

He responded, Well, "Like I said, Chevy vs. Ford. Denon is still a good brand and I'm sure you will be happy with it."

Maybe the guy sees it that way but I don't necessarily. If Ford has a feature that Chevy can't touch, it's no longer a matter of taste. I didn't want to make an argument but rather, was hoping for some ACTUAL EVIDENCE as to why he favors Yamaha.

This installer did say some interesting things though.

KEY COMMENTS POSTED FOR YOUR REVIEW:

1.) He said that he doesn't favor/prefer NEW MODEL AVRs lately because they are rushing to develop a lot of streaming compatibility and WiFi and he doesn't feel that the newest models have been fine tuned yet. He called them "GLITCHY" compared to older models. He was speaking generally about mainly the WiFi & Bluetooth and wasn't brand specific other than to say, "Yamaha's WiFi works great." (I.E. He favors buying a Denon X4000 over a X4100).

2.) He said he never installs or recommends the lowest end of any product series with AVRs. He says that its almost always worth it to bump up to a low-mid level price range and bite the bullet on the extra $200 or so.....UNLESS you go with a separate amp in which case you can just concentrate on FEATURES and not power from the AVR.

What do you guys think about the receiver being better if it isn't the NEWEST that they are still in the process of perfecting??
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
There's nothing wrong with either Denon or Yamaha. They're both good quality. What matters far more for good sound is the speakers.

I know very little about Audyessy or YPAO, except that EQ is secondary to speakers for good sound.
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Swerd,

Agreed on the speakers being the highest priority. I am fairly certain that I will end up with the HSU sub and the Ascend 340s as my speaker/sub purchases. I am only NOW coming focusing on what most feel is the least important thing that I can actually control (can't control room layout or budget) which is the AVR. I saw an interview with the Owner and speaker builder from Ascend where they asked him to prioritize the factors that make for great sound. He ranked items 1-10. This was his prioritized breakdown in descending level of importance:

1.) The Loudspeakers
2.) The Loudspeakers
3.) The Loudspeakers
4.) The Loudspeakers
5.) The Loudspeakers
6.) The Loudspeakers
7.) The Room
8-10.) Everything else

Now of course, he MAKES LOUDSPEAKERS so he COULD be biased. But he seems to be right too!

I am actually CONSIDERING a refurb AVR for the first time!! I really didn't want to go that route but the underwhelming reports from the newest AVRs (Denon X1100s and X2100s aren't exactly gleaming (from the Amazonian Reviewers---and Yest, I realize they are not all geniuses...LOL) and I am hearing from some that getting an older higher end than the X1100 and X2100 may be a sound option. A lot of guys here feel its a worthwhile trade off budgetarily to be able to direct more money to the speakers and sub.

They have all recommended Accessories4Less and I have been fairly reluctant. But after pretty much narrowing down what I will get for speakers/sub, the refurb idea is growing on me........I can only say, "It's just $100.00 more!!" so many times before my money starts gettin FUNNY!! :eek::eek::eek::eek: Its already starting to LAUGH AT ME!!! lol If my budget was a belt, I ain't got too many holes left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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GIEGAR

Full Audioholic
QUESTION:
Can anyone lay it out again for me specifically what the Denon advantage is with the Audyessy especially in a tricky room over the YPAO technology that Yamaha uses??
I could Clay :D... but nowhere near as well Audyssey founder and CTO Chris Kyriakakis: MultEQ vs other equalization methods.

A bit more reading on AVS in these two FAQ's: Audyssey FAQ's h)4 & h)5.

Personally, the main thing Audyssey MultEQ has got going for it is the associated Dynamic EQ. I use this 100% of the time and love what it does in my room at lower volumes.

In terms of Denon vs Yamaha it may well be akin to Chevy vs Ford preference, but in terms of a room correction solution, it's more like Audi vs Toyota sophistication (in my opinion).
 
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GIEGAR

Full Audioholic
.
I'm hoping to get the best out of my situation without compromising too much on anything from seating to TV to speaker placement. When I get to doing the rewire later this week or this weekend, I will be able to see how flexible I can be with the mounting position on the walls height wise. I can't get down to ear level but I may have some wiggle room to come down in height some.

I hope to get some good advice from Ascend in addition to all the help here.
Clay, I understand your desire is to get all your ducks in a row and have everything wired-up and ready to rock when the speakers arrive, correct?

This would be fine with a stock standard speaker layout, but I really think with your unusual layout, experimentation might be the key. Is there any way to delay the wiring etc to give you some time to experiment with speaker placement and height, particularly for the LCR? You can then trial your different width and height options by temporarily placing the speakers on sturdy boxes, stools or even a stepladder or two, before you 100% commit to locations.

Also, something that's been bugging me since you posted pics of your room earlier (and I apologise if I'm asking too late)... I'm wondering what's happening on the wall 90 degrees anti-clockwise from the wall with the staircase where you intend to mount your screen? (I don't think there was a pic of it.) Was/is that wall a possiblity, or was it another wall full of big windows?
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
GIEGAR,

Great response!!! The Audi vs. Toyota comp is what I feel is more accurate. I know I'm new to this and don't even own a AVR yet, but I have read probably well over 50 articles, reviews, faqs, forum thread responses here and elsewhere that ALL say the same thing FOR THE MOST PART in favor of the Audyessy technology. I have read guys saying they don't have any issues with the other technology and I certainly believe them.

I will also say, they likely don't have my room issues. No room is perfect but someone with a more ideal room and speaker alignment doesn't require the degree of room correction that a less than ideal room would. A Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, etc. will do the job well (AAAND there are those who despise the correction tech altogether!!!)
NOTE: Onkyo should never have adpoted its own technology and dropped Audyessy IMO

Ears are subjective. Technology isn't. The better more advanced filters, the more accurate calibration for multiple positions, the subEQ (on the 32 flavor), the better sub integration etc. all point to Audyssey being the most advanced especially the highest level versions. Given the large array of available evidence and testimony lauding Audyessy compared to pretty much everything except perhaps the Anthem AVRs & system, I fail to see the Chevy vs. Ford comp being very accurate.

I'm still looking at the Denon and creeping up on better than what I initially was looking at (pricier too of course o_O)

I will continue by addressing your questions in another post as we have settled the Audyessy question in my mind.
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
GIEGAR,

Your point about experimentation and not locking everything in sort of just to get it all DONE AND INSTALLED is a great one and I intend to do this as much as I can. I do like to have my ducks in a row big time when I am hiring some help though as I will with this work. I want guys I'm paying to have EVERYTHING they need AND THEN SOME. I hate making parts runs.

That said, with regard to the true goal here, to get the best sound possible, to just slam it all in and live with whatever the result is would be stupid and a waste of all the research and selection of quality gear for sure.

Unfortunately I am in a position where many decisions are just MADE for me by the layout of the room so its sort of an IT IS WHAT IT IS sort of thing that I have accepted as less than ideal. There are many things I just cannot do. But that's ok......


Regarding the question about the left side wall counterclockwise from the Video mount wall, Yes, its all solid windows. Entire left wall and rear wall are all big windows.

Then I have the staircase right where the logical Front Right speaker would be so I have to go outside of the staircase further to the right as the ONLY place to put a Front Right and it has to be up 6' to not be blocked by the stairs. I can't have just one front right at that height so I gotta match that height for performance and aestetics reasons (can't have 21" speakers dangling at multiple heights!!). The rear wall is very limited by the Front Door being close to the right rear and the left rear is perpendicular window walls. The Windows on the rear wall limited both rear speaker locations to a 6 foot minimum height. The only locations I get to ACTUALLY CHOOSE, are the Left Front (which has to match all the others) and the Center which is going centered OVER the TV.

Because of these things the wiring is as it is. When I bought the house in 2008, I had some cable work done for a home office (LAN set up) and I had the guy who did the wiring also prewire the room for future HT speakers and on wall TV mount. My house has NO ATTIC but the room is over a raised foundation. With two exterior walls and a third load bearing with a staircase attached and the prewire was REALLY tough to even get the positions where I currently have wire dangling.

SO, although I would love to have more options to try for optimizing my equipment with my room, and be able to play with it and get it really dialed in and THEN permanently mount, I really have a very limited menu of choices.

I figure the best I can hope for is trying to get the speakers mounted as close to their centers being at about 6' up or so. That is the lowest I can go to avoid the Staircase and be able to project over it to the listening area. I will then go about experimenting with rotation and tilt degrees and use the Audyessy to calibrate and let it work some magic as much as it can to round things out.
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
QUESTION FOR ANY AND EVERYONE:

I am now being drawn to the Denon X4000 like I am caught in a darn Audyessy Gold Tractor Beam. Now being that a new one is "ONLY $100 MORE", than the refurbs at AC4L, the "used/like new", and the Amazon Warehouse slight cosmetic damaged ones (other more 3rd party sellers have other used and open box ones But I don't like the risk)........

What would you guys choose of these options for the same machine??

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4000/denon-avr-x4000-7.2-4k-ultra-hd-networking-receiver-w/airplay/1.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00CALM17C/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all&sr=1-3&qid=1421729759

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4000-7-2-Channel-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00CALM17C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421724446&sr=8-1&keywords=Denon+X4000

http://onecall.com/denon-avrx4000ci-7-2-channel-3d-home-theater-receiver

I am leaning toward the third option down. I really thought that a REFURB especially from AC4L would be a bigger difference in price from a BRAND NEW one than a measly $100.00!! Doesn't seem worth it to me......and Amazon is worse than the Dow Jones!!!!!!!!!!!

What do you guys think???

NOTE: I NOW see what KEW and ZieglJ mean by "AMAZON's SCHIZOPHRENIC PRICING"!!!! The Amazon Warehouse link had their offer at $699.99 and WITHIN the last hour it has jumped to $709.16!!!!!!!!!!! What the HELL!!!!????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? The price on a damaged (slightly) item just went UP $19 and change????!!!!! I don't get it!! SMH
 
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GIEGAR

Full Audioholic
The AUDYSSEY GOLD TRACTOR BEAM! :D:D:D That's awesome!

What would you guys choose of these options for the same machine??
I'd get the cheapest!

(Try not to get too emotionally attached to an AVR purchase, they're almost a commodity item these days.)

I have no problem with open box, so would get the one from BlinQ for $617 shipped... and order half a dozen Blu-Rays while I was at it! ;)

(eg: http://www.amazon.com/David-Gilmour-Remember-Albert-Blu-ray/dp/B000UD08HW/ref=pd_cp_mov_3)
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
I think that that is good advice all the way around on price!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D I'm not concerned so much with the future as with the thing being a dropped item or something else that was gonna cause some electronic part to pop or burn out or something...or that MAYHEM guy could just have taken a dump on it........ I'm just fearing something could happen..... :eek:

I really want to be able to get a warranty longer than 90 days from the seller I buy from or at least be able to get some kind of decent coverage on it in case its flawed somehow. I didn't see any option for a coverage plan.

BTW---- The best return policy and coverage I know of is Costco. Especially if you buy it on an AMEX Card that doubles the warranty on your purchases. Receivers do NOT fall under the exceptions to their rule of full refund for product ANY TIME. The only limit to how long one could own a receiver and use it and return it if it was still working is a person's conscience!!!!!!!!!!!! (receivers don't advance fast enough to allow serial returnists to constantly upgrade)

Too bad they only have the Sony and also the Yamaha and Onkyo with their Bose packages. No Audyessy there......

I'm chicken......I'll wait and see if I can snag another deal on a X4000.....HOPEFULLY!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe Ill also just wait til after Wed and see what the HSU and Ascend people say.....maybe some different info could change my thinking.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Clay

Get the AVR you want, the Denon AVR-X4000 is a good choice, at the best available price, but be aware of the warranty and the return policy of the vendor.

I agree with GIEGAR when he says "Try not to get too emotionally attached to an AVR purchase, they're almost a commodity item these days."

When you're first starting out, it's easy to get carried away with the myriad of different features available on AVRs. After you've used one for a while, you'll realize which features are important and which ones are not. Like many, you may find that the 80/20 rule applies – that 80% of the users only use 20% of the features.

You'll also find that AVR manufacturers introduce new models frequently. And, if you believe their advertising literature, the newly introduced features are so shatteringly good, that you absolutely must toss your old receiver and get one with all the new bells & whistles. Relax, it isn't quite so. What matters most in a receiver, after you set up your system, is the power amplifier section and the convenience of use. Many of an AVR's features help a lot during set up, but once that is done, you don't use them. Audyssey, for example, is definitely a work in progress. What is available a year or two from now will make today's version look outdated.

Thinking about setup made me look closely at the photos of your room. Other than the problem of the stairs, it doesn't look so bad to me. In fact, that vaulted ceiling may actually help with bass. The biggest detracting factor to good bass sound is cancellations and overemphasis at certain frequencies caused by opposite reflecting surfaces (walls, ceilings, and floor) that are parallel to each other. A vaulted ceiling is not parallel to the floor, and that may work in your favor. A large asymmetrical room may look like a problem to an owner who likes visual symmetry, but can be an advantage if you consider how sound waves propagate.
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
Hey Happy New Year Aholics!!

I'm quite uninformed and an audio neophyte so I apologize in advance. I just got a new 75 inch Samsung LED and I have a 20'(feet) x 25'(feet) room that is pre-wired for a 5.1 HT. I have a budget of $1500.00 (USD) and I want to be able to get the best: A.) Speakers B.) Sub and C.) Receiver. I understand from reading many of the comments in these forums that Speaker quality and getting the right Sub should be the priority over receiver (at least when budgeting where the money gets spent). I have also learned that BOSE are completely overrated and overpriced and that many better quality makers with less famous names are a much smarter choice.

I mostly watch sports, HDTV and sometimes movies and the system will not be used for gaming.

Can anybody share their knowledge and opinion and tell me how YOU, AN AUDIOAHOLIC, would spend my $1500 to get the best full 5.1 set up??? I am looking to get all components at one time with my budget.

Cheers and thanks. Any information would be valued and appreciated!!!
A good place to start are reviewing the recommendations from Sound and Vision's website.


The best way to spend $1500 IMO since your system is pre-wired is to get your sub last and speakers and receiver first. Wait until you listen to the system without a sub, you may find you don't even need one initially. Once you have an idea of what you want get over to Ebay or Audiogon and shop a little. If you want to audition the speakers first many online direct manufacturers off a 30-60 day trial. JBL has the new studio 2 series at 20% off right now and comes with a 30 day trial. Have fun!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I would definitely keep an eye on the warranty that comes with an AVR.
Accessories4less has a 1 year warranty on refurb Denons and they are Denon Factory refurbished. For me, those are the minimum conditions I would consider acceptable. I avoid third party refurbs of electronics like the plague!
The $100 difference between a new X4000 and a refurb reflects the fact that the X4000 is discontinued, six months ago, you would be paying something like $1000 for a new X4000. The price on refurbs does not usually drop when a model is discontinued. I would pay the extra $100 to get the full 3 year warranty.
Giegar may have experience with Blinq, but I would stick with "Amazon fulfillment" if at all possible. I have bought from other companies through Amazon and they have played games with returns to make it next to impossible to return. IOW, Amazon's system of printing a return UPS label for a full refund was not an option. I had to email them and negotiate and they were not responsive (it was a $40 item, not an AVR)...I ended up eating it. Just research it before going a different direction.
The open box from One Call looks like a great deal. Open box items are supposed to have a full warranty (I have been told - confirm via email so you have documentation). The problem is I don't especially trust One Call. A member of our forum, AccuDefTechGuy bought several refurb'ed Denons from them and had an incredibly high failure rate. He will never touch refurb again! You might want to PM him about buying an open box item from One Call.

Sorry my info is not more definitive, but all I can do is share what I know.

PS- don't worry too much about Audyssey going obsolete. While I am sure they will introduce newer versions with greater resolution, if you recall my post on Audyssey, I was recommending the "obsolete" version (by two generations). Inclusion of a second sub pushed you towards XT 32, but I can't think of anything they will add of great consequence above it. The resolution of XT 32 is very high. Maybe they will add SubEQ for 3-4 subs, but that is a pretty rarified market!
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Hey witchdoctor,

I agree. I have read some informative things on Sound and Vision and a few other sites. My humble and meager budget of $1500 is now topped out at $3210.19!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what happens when you learn about better gear and how to better implement it in your room (Not that you can't get good value for a $1500 budget) If you are new to AV/HT, you will learn A LOT from these guys at this forum. They are very generous with their experiences and knowledge. They have pointed me in the direction of online speaker sellers for a better value for the money proposition as you mention in your post.

I appreciate your advice!!
 
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Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Swerd,

Yes the X4000 looks to be what I should get. I'm just wanting that warranty security blanket as much as possible!! I'm not attached to the obscure sexy features of the AVR. I am interested in best sound/best EQ (I feel they are related), ease of use interface and remote control wise, and ability to stream music. IOW, WiFi and Bluetooth are features I would LIKE TO HAVE. That said, the X4000 DOES have AirPlay and I have an Iphone. But I would like to have the WiFi and Bluetooth technology if I could get it.

Regarding your comments on room setup, is VERY ENCOURAGING and even improved my MOOD!!!! :p I've got this cursed SYMMETRY GENE that makes me think INSIDE THE BOX as far as tending to subconsciously favor VISUAL SYMMETRY as some type of PERFECTION. LOL. I gotta break outta that box more......gotta "break my rusty cage...and RUN!". You make a very intriguing point about the ceiling. In fact, the stairs are shaping up to be the defining problem/issue.

Very good insight.

QUESTION:
How much do any of you guys value WiFi and Bluetooth as an AVR feature for streaming music??
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
This is getting beyond my ken, but I'm sure I'll get corrected if I am wrong. :D

However, this is new feature to implement in AVRs. There may well be some bugs and the user interface may not be what it should. I believe there are other ways to implement Wi-Fi and bluetooth - Wi-Fi is pretty mature as a feature of BluRay players and probably works smoother. I'm not sure about Bluetooth.

Given the economics of getting into an X4100W vs X4000, I would look outside the AVR for connectivity.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… In fact, the stairs are shaping up to be the defining problem/issue.
The set up routine on your receiver can correct (completely or partially?) for the different distances between the listening position(s) and your left, center, and right front speakers. This can be done automatically through Audyssey or manually with an SPL meter and a tape measure. Wait until you try this before despairing :).
How much to any of you guys value WiFi and Bluetooth as an AVR feature for streaming music??
I use WiFi streaming of movies/TV via my BR player. Smart TVs also do this. (My older TV and AVR aren't 'smart' enough.) There are also ways of streaming music via the internet, a wireless modem, and a WiFi ready device. It doesn't have to be included as part of the AVR.

I don't use Bluetooth at all. Not by preference, only because I've never used it.
 

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