Need Guidance buying 5.1 HT Spkrs & Receiver

[Clay Bertrand]

Hey Ty,

Thanks for posting that link on the mounts. I may be misunderstanding the mounting situation as it relates to the 340s especially. But here is what my understanding as someone who is only going off of Amazon reviews/Q&As, this forum info, pictures of products (mounts and the rears of 340s) and the information I discussed with Dina at Ascend the first time I called about the 340s. I don't have any of the products yet.

These are the Random Statements of Fact As I understand them:

On Speakerwire Management, none of the clamp mounts we are looking at or using had the foresight to have done ALL THE ENGINEERING AND SCHEMATICS TO......uhhh...drill a damn hole except for Pinpoint and its only because the other ones just haven't caught up to the "Major Advancement in Hole Drilling Technology" BUT Since as you say, all you have to do is drill a hole carefully to hide your wiring, this seems to be an easy tweak seconded by this guy on Amazon who bought your BT77s. See First Review/Most Helpful review by T Trucker:http://www.amazon.com/B-Tech-BT77-Ultragrip-Speaker-Black/dp/B004DCAOHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421460675&sr=8-1&keywords=BT77#Ask

On Drilling holes in the Speakers, I know that if done correctly, there is no damage to them and it certainly fortifies any mounting. That said, I would/will only drill into my speakers IF it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. If the mounting method combinations that can be employed WITHOUT DRILLING, even to mount big 340s on BT77 or like mounts, prove to be insufficient or even close to iffy, then I will/would look to drill.

Before I decided on 340s, I was mainly conducting due diligence on my speaker options with mounting them with a wall mount being a must. I was concerned that because I'm mounting off the ground over six feet, these 340s are termed "mini towers". Further, I hadn't seen any real solid info around on if they even could be mounted on a tilt which I also think I need due to the mounting height. Now anything CAN be mounted. But what I reason is that when the speaker has predrilled and installed inserts that allow for its securing to a mount it indicates that the speaker maker intends or foresees the customer MAY mount the speakers and has designed it with the inserts in the right place for proper anchoring. I couldn't be sure from just the pictures so I gave them a call. First thing I had to address was, ARE THE 340s EQUIPPED WITH A THREADED INSERT TO MOUNT ON A WALL MOUNT?? Dina told me what I had read, that the speakers are "mini towers" and IS equipped with 1 threaded rear insert below the terminals. She said that the single insert is designed to allow mounting on their (and other) stands to use them as "mini towers" but that a few customers had mounted them up on wall mounts. They are looking for some pictures they were emailed last year with details of a couple of mounts done by professional installers.

MY Opinion on Drilling is that it won't be necessary.

 

[KEW]

I would use option 2 or 4 - center with the TV center. The idea is to perceive the sounds as if they come from where they should in the movie.

The perfect center is centered behind an acoustically transparent screen. That is not an option for a TV.

You'll have an interesting situation where a plane flying left to right will appear to accelerate after it passes the center since you right speaker is so much farther than the left. It will be interesting how obvious stuff like this is. I'm guessing, if you listen for it you will notice, but most situations won't be too obvious if you are watching TV and not listening critically.

As for the height. As close as possible below or above the TV is one objective, but the other is to have a smooth transition from side to side. So if we look at the plane flying left to right, you would not want your left at 7', your center at 3' and your right at 7' high. So it really depends on the height you mount your TV. I would probably align the bottom of all three speakers then mount the TV just below the center. However, I would not sweat it too much, our mind tends to alter auditory perception to match visual perception.
(Google "the McGurk effect"to see some video clips on this).

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Ty, More on the MOUNTS....Why I will not Drill....


I have to confess a BrainFart on my thinking that the clamp mounts may not accommodate the width of the 340s and maintain full clamp strength due to the BT77s and VideoSecu's 11 inch expansion maximum. This is not an issue. My bad. Upon a closer examination of the 340s specs, I realize that I had the width and depth numbers swapped!! I thought forward tipping with a tilt of the speaker would be an area of concern. However, now that I actually, Uhhhhhhh....I don't know..Uhhhh.... KNOW THE DAMN MEASUREMENTS, I still see some issues but not what I had feared as far as tipping forward as bad. The 340s are a little different with the Clamp Mounts IMO and all reasonably available measures should be taken with BT77s particularly the more tilt being used. Whereas a 170 at 12"x 9"x 10" is nearly a perfect CUBE, and therefore a much sturdier footprint so to speak, The 21" height with relatively narrow 7" width and 10.5" depth (w grill on) just logically seems to lend itself to being laterally wobbly. Because the 7" width and 10.5" depth makes for a relatively rectangular footprint (at least compared to 170s) a tendancy to tip forward would seem to be buffered somewhat by that footprint making it a little less of a concern.

I think that with the 340s 26lb weight and narrow rectangular footprint, if its mounted with the BT77 clamp mount in conjunction with this "pressure sensitive adhesive" grip product recommended by KEW -- ITEM C in the pictured items here---

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,41637&p=67844

or heavy duty velcro or BluTack, it should be pretty sturdy on that mount. BUT 'Pretty Sturdy' ain't good enough if we can manage to ALSO, utilize the preinstalled single threaded insert on the rear of the 340 below the terminals to truly anchor the speaker.
MORE ON THIS BELOW....


I am leaning toward the BT77s although as was suggested, "they all look like they come from the same factory in China" in which case why not just get the VideoSecu that are $30 cheaper?? But I digress... In a perfect world, Clamp Mounts completely would eliminate the need to have to anchor the speaker with a screw or otherwise in most cases because the Clamp would be sufficient. A more extreme tilt approaching the 10 degree max depending on the desired set up and speaker dimensions could necessitate using factory preinstalled inserts already in each speaker to further anchor the speaker to the mount in addition to the Clamp if only for Peace of Mind. This would be great if all speakers and all mounts had uniform mounting bolt patterns like the internationally accepted VESA standards used in characterizing TV mounting hole patterns. Alas, this NOT THE CASE!! The problem is that with many speakers, the preinstalled mounting inserts are on the rear of the speaker cabinet/body while the Clamp mounts feature predrilled side holes. Simply put, NONE OF THE HOLES MATCH OR LINE UP!!!! (I think THIS is why people resort to drilling the speaker to anchor it to the mount and the preferred fixed position using the side holes on the Clamp) Further, the mount designs do not have "SEAT BACKS" where the speaker sits that could be used to screw anchor because they are designed to accomodate all different depth dimensions of various speakers. This is understandble. Speakers come in an array of sizes while mounts are made for universal fit them all .



SOLUTION: Fabricate our own mounting brackets for 340s. Simple.


Speaking to the issue of hardware incompatibility or the "NONE OF THE HOLES MATCH OR LINE UP!!!!" problem, this is not entirely true. Yes, the side holes in the mount can only work will drilling holed in the speaker. But with the 340s in combination with any of the clamp mounts, they actually end up with the center rear hole of the rear seat of the mounts being on center with the single preinstalled mounting insert below the terminals on the rear of the 340. This insert appears to be about 3 inches from the base of the speaker and as Ascend states, it is intended for anchor use with the stands to give the Tower Effect to the Mini Towers.

Anything from a plastic or metal A/C n Heating Duct support strip metal spray painted to match to a spray painted L bracket to even an L bracket with a T at the Top to better hold the speaker could be used depending on how much you want to put into it. I would prefer something close to the gauge steel that the mount is made of whatever that thickness is (maybe a little thicker but not much) as I want it to match the build level of the mount. Bracket width sorta depends on design taste.....But lets say its a 1" wide L Bracket with the bottom of the L screwed under the center rear seat hole of the mount and having a T shape at the top that spans 6 inches horizontally across the back of the 340. Bracket would be bolted to the mount with a flat head bolt and nut (countersunk hole on seat bracket would be ideal but if using grip adhesion not necessary). Bracket would extend toward the rear of the speaker and right angle or "L" up right at the rear going up 3 inches or so before "T"ing out 2.5" or so right and left horizontally with the intersection of the T centered with a hole measured to be lined up on center with the predrilled insert installed by Ascend. Another bolt secures the bracket to the rear of the 340 via the insert.

I plan to see what's out there and if I can't find anything suitable that doesn't look like crap, I plan to make my own parts and powercoat them to match the mounts. Could even try to come up with a cleaner wire management concept to further hide the connections like using something tubular (not in an 80s Valley Girl way) for the L Bracket arm.

Actually, my brother has a Powdercoating and Sandblasting business and all the equipment to fabricate a simple item like custom bent metal with holes in it powercoated flat or textured black.

If I crank some out maybe I can send some out to you if they work out.

That's my plan though.

CONCLUSION:

The 26lb weight of the 340s, their 7" W x 10.5" slightly rectangular footprint, Clamp Mounted using the pressure adhesive on the seat and Clamp Sides (or conversely on the speaker itself) AAAAAANDDDD using an L Bracket type of assembly to further secure the speaker via the rear preinstalled factory insert...................................................I have to believe that is the best that can be done without drilling or going with straps or worse, BUNGIE CORDS!

If I can perform brain surgery, I should be able to manage to anchor my speakers!!!!!



Problem is, I CAN'T perform brain surgery....Not YET at least..... I'm sure they got a FORUM I can join to learn though!!!!


Tell me what you think?? Is this anchor concept worth it in your opinion?????????

 

[KEW]

Scratch BluTack. It is good for keeping a speaker from sliding around on a flat stand, but it is essentially "sticky putty". This means the clamp will squeeze it out and it will deform to whatever load is on it.

I really do believe the High Friction Sheet with clamp will do it. However, to play it safe until you build confidence, you can temporarily use a zip tie to strap the speaker to the mount so it won't be able to slip or slide out of the bracket. Leave a little slack so you can tell if the speaker shifts. Wait a couple of months, try to shift the speaker manually, then remove (or keep) the zip ties depending on how visible they are.

Screw eye threaded to fit 340 (I think you said 1/4-20 threads in the hole on back of speaker). Local hardware should have.
https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-Details.aspx?product=12271

 

[Ty Wayne]

Some sort of an L bracket like you've mentioned sounds like a good idea Clay. Something Im misunderstanding right now is, are the 1/4 x 20 inserts already installed in the speaker? Swerd acted like I would have to do this myself. But you are saying that the speakers already have predrilled and installed inserts. It was my understanding that Ascend simply sent the insert with the speaker in case one wanted to use it, but installation of the insert would be up to the individual. I guess I'll find out tomorrow when my speakers get here.

 

[KEW]

Some sort of an L bracket like you've mentioned sounds like a good idea Clay. Something Im misunderstanding right now is, are the 1/4 x 20 inserts already installed in the speaker? Swerd acted like I would have to do this myself. But you are saying that the speakers already have predrilled and installed inserts. It was my understanding that Ascend simply sent the insert with the speaker in case one wanted to use it, but installation of the insert would be up to the individual. I guess I'll find out tomorrow when my speakers get here.

It is installed just below the terminals. Clay linked a better photo, but you can see it here:

 

[Ty Wayne]

Oh okay, I see it. So is it not preinstalled on the cbm-170's? What are these two screws below the terminals on the 170's?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cbm170/170SE_lt_bk_hr.jpg

 

[Swerd]

Some sort of an L bracket like you've mentioned sounds like a good idea Clay. Something Im misunderstanding right now is, are the 1/4 x 20 inserts already installed in the speaker? Swerd acted like I would have to do this myself. But you are saying that the speakers already have predrilled and installed inserts. It was my understanding that Ascend simply sent the insert with the speaker in case one wanted to use it, but installation of the insert would be up to the individual. I guess I'll find out tomorrow when my speakers get here.

That was also my understanding. Ascend provides the inserts for you to install in locations of your choice.

Oh okay, I see it. So is it not preinstalled on the cbm-170's? What are these two screws below the terminals on the 170's?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cbm170/170SE_lt_bk_hr.jpg

Only a guess, but those two screws appear to have a different purpose.

 

[Swerd]

Clay

I haven't paid close attention to your thread until today. In general, you've been getting very good advice, so I didn't have anything to add. Your thinking about speaker choices evolved slowly, so please correct me if I have any of this wrong. If I understand correctly:

• You are getting Ascend CMT-340 speakers (nice choice)
  
• You plan on wall mounting them, oriented vertically, but high enough so you will have to tilt them forward a bit.
• The CMT-340 cabinet is 21" tall × 7.5" wide × 10.5" deep, and weighs 26 lbs.

The 340s are MTM speakers. Have you had any prior experience with MTMs? There are many good things about that type of design (I own MTM speakers myself), but before you lock yourself into a particular wall mounting method, you should be aware of a potential problem you may encounter.

With MTM speakers (imagine floor-standing speakers for now), the best sound comes when the listener's head is between the upper and lower mid woofer. Floor standing MTMs are designed to be tall enough so seated listeners are at the right height. If you stand up, and move your head above the upper mid woofer, you will hear a noticeable loss in the mid range. At first you may notice this because it makes the bass sound louder, but it really is less mid range. The same can happen if you sit on the floor with your head below the lower mid woofer.

Now let's think about a tilted wall mount for your MTM speakers. The angle of the tilt becomes critical, as they are pointed toward the sofa. They should be aimed so the listeners' heads are between the two mid woofers. Of course, this all depends on both the tilt angle and the distance of the sofa from the speakers. I hope this makes sense.

You are doing an excellent job so far at listening to complex advice and learning the key points. You also seem to be very good at over-thinking things a bit , especially about the wall mount method. Maybe this is how you think out loud . So I hesitate at giving you more to worry over. Don't worry, you'll get this right. You might have to alter your wall mounting plans from your original ideas as you see what tilt angle is needed for these somewhat tall and heavy speakers.

 

[KEW]

Oh okay, I see it. So is it not preinstalled on the cbm-170's? What are these two screws below the terminals on the 170's?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cbm170/170SE_lt_bk_hr.jpg

Those are indeed the inserts.

Here is image from Ascends own Omnimount accessory (not sure it is 170, but the location is consistent):

For the 340 they use a plate to tie the 340 to their pedestal stand.:

 

[Clay Bertrand]

KEW,

Awesome response on the Center mount position . My room layout is in total crazy flux trying to balance the dynamic between centering the TV on the wall centered between the 2 fronts as best I can along with centering the seating and trying to make everything work. If it was a more symmetrical room and I wouldn't have the issues.

I'm going to go ahead and mount it centered ABOVE the tv. Since the recessed mount will have it snug to the wall, the speaker will be sticking out from the wall 10.5-12". No easy way to create a recessed speaker cove at all for a 21" Horizontal dimension when you have 16" studs in the way.

Your point that the room correction will make the farther away speakers seem like a plane is gaining speed left to right is what I was afraid of. I'm hoping it isn't real noticeable as you had intimated it may not be.

On BluTack, I agree. Its that gummy stuff and I would only use it if it could be done right to where it doesn't OOZE out when the clamp grip on the mount is tightened. I am taking your advice to heart and gonna grab the Friction Sheet from that Lees woodworking site. Its a pressure adhesive that uses downward pressure as part of the gripping super duper no skid action.

I will try to fashion something permanent to hold the speakers such as an L Bracket type of rigging that I hope to make when I have all the products IN HAND. The ZIP tie idea is a good one for testing and being safe. Good Call.

QUESTION:
I am already planning to rewire and I'm going to buy a 250ft roll of 14AWG from Monoprice Would you guys recommend wiring my 340s with Banana Plugs?? I've used only the stripped bare wire in the past on my older stuff.....

 

[Swerd]

Banana plugs make connecting and disconnecting easier, but have no effect on sound quality. With wall mounted speakers, I would think you wont be connecting and disconnecting often, bare wire should do.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

TY, regarding the Mounting with Inserts, KEW is right on and beat me to the pic posting. Ascend does show the 170s being mounted to the Omnimount using the inserts. Perhaps the confusion may stem from past models not have preinstalled inserts and older forums representing this but the 170s do have mounting inserts installed from what I gather but I don't think they are readily compatible with BT77s (not sure if you were going to use those on the 170s).

The inserts for the 340 are designed for the stands and as KEW points out, uses a plate to affix it. Same GENERAL idea I will try with the L Bracket and the BT77s when I get them. BTW, I think the same thing could easily be rigged for the 170s.

 

[pagesiderageside]

Really agree with the price-performance of HTD speakers. A buddy of mine has them and they definitely beat the pants off of some low-end polk satellite speakers I bought a few years back. The Polks held up decently well for movies, but not so much music.

If I could make one suggestion though, BIC sells cheaper subs that have been reviewed favorably compared to HSU subs. I have the BIC-PL200 and very much like it. (would post links but can't yet given my low thread count). I have it set at only 50% volume and still has PLENTY of headroom. Sounds great w/ tight, punchy bass for both music and movies. You can catch sales for this sub in the mid-$200 range. I bought mine for $300 off of Amazon (had a gift card).

Additionally, Kew's post had an excellent break down of the Audyssey technologies. Another thing to consider, is that depending on your listening volumes, I'm not sure that the Audyssey version is all that important. Feel free anyone to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but effectively I find that it's far more helpful at lower listening volumes, At lower volumes, it definitely "smoothes" out the sound, but at louder volumes, I personally have trouble distinguishing this from manual setup. It also isn't going to make your speakers any "better" or fix poor speaker/sub placement.

 

[pagesiderageside]

If I had to recommend one thing over all, having recently graduated from audio neophyte to a slightly more advanced neophyte, I would say speakers and sub make the biggest difference to sound. Personally, I would buy 2 good floor standing speakers now as well as a decent sub. A basic AVR like the one mentioned above (or even THIS ONE) would hold your over for a while. If you absolutely must have 5.1, I would spend less money on the rear speakers as you won't hear noise from these anyways (mainly ambient noises that don't require the same degree of fidelity).

For me, after purchasing the TV, the order of importance for a good HT setup would be as follows:

1) L and R front speakers
2) Subwoofer
3) Center channel
4) A/V Receiver
5) Satellites
6) Second sub

If you are able to save the money, I would recommend with absolute certainty the GoldenEar Triton Sevens. Just bought a pair and the difference that and the BIC PL200 made to my HT were night and day! Sampled a ton of speakers, and those just blew me away, especially for the money.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Swerd,
Thanks for all of your input and advice!! I hear you on the wiring....if Bananas aren't gonna improve the quality and the speakers will stay put, raw wire sill suffice. Also, I see you have noticed my VERBOSE posts and tendancy to OVERTHINK things....LMAO....Yep pretty right on man!!! I'm all about OVERKILL on everything too including research and questions. REALLY SORRY for the REALLY LONG posts I tend to throw out there. Thanks again to everyone here for their immense patience, awesome knowledge and willingness to share!!


I have been seemingly addicted to getting my room all PIMPED OUT after waiting and living with crappy or NO technology at all for the past 6 years here where I'm at. I'm gushing with questions and honestly, I have been sleeping like 4-5 hours a day since I started in this Thread and started getting advice and researching everything. Sometimes, my FINGERS do my thinking AND TYPING and my brain just checks in to give the occasional OK. Also, when I actually get the speakers and everything, I will have less to think and theorize about because it'll be right in front of me! That's the THEORY at least!! BUT I do like my planning....Oh do I ever!! lol

Regarding the 340s, I really think that they are a good option for me because of the large room. From what Ascend told me, that is exactly what these were designed. Also, they have some specific advice on tilt that I look forward to hearing in person. After Wednesday when I pick up all the speakers and the sub, I will have a better idea what can be achieved with the mounts and how drastic the tilt and skew may need to be. I know Ascend says that their 340C Center speaker is designed to not need a tilt at high or low levels and its built to disperse the sound very widely. Particularly in light of the things you mention in your post, I will be questioning them regarding their recommendations for directional placement of the mounted speakers and I HOPE I will eventually get it right!

 

[Swerd]

… Also, they (Ascend) have some specific advice on tilt that I look forward to hearing in person. After Wednesday when I pick up all the speakers and the sub, I will have a better idea what can be achieved with the mounts and how drastic the tilt and skew may need to be.

Good. Ascend is a good company, and if they've got some ideas about wall mounting tilt, listen to them. Good luck!

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Hey pagesiderageside,

CONGRATS man, YOU CAN NOW POST LINKS AND PICS I believe!! Also, Good insight on the priority breakdown of the HT components and appreciate the advice on the equipment. I am going to demo the HSU sub and Ascend 340s on Wednesday at their facilities and I will likely buy them too unless I am underwhelmed with what I hear. I will check into the BIC and GoldenEars also though to further educate myself and see if I might consider them too.

On HTD, I was very interested in their Level 3s, but I think that the Ascend 340s are an entirely different class of speaker and a cut above the Level 3s albeit at an equally "cut above" price point. By that I mean that they are a niche speaker that isn't a bookshelf, isn't a satellite (for sure) and yet, isn't a tower speaker. The market for the 340s is less defined because of its size and dimensions. Apples to Apples, HTD Level 3s compare to Ascend 170s but HTD doesn't make a speaker level size or price wise that can be compared with the 340s.

The HTD products do look to be a good value though IMO and they do have a 10% OFF sale starting Jan. 24 as well as no sales tax (at least for non Texas residents). I was strongly considering them. The Macassar Ebony looks pretty........

 

[KEW]

Swerd makes a good point about the angle. I glossed over it because it seemed your mounting height was fixed. You'll have to determine how flexible mounting height is, but here is how to figure out your angle.

My main listening/viewing position is going to have the following measurements from each of the 4 Front and Rear HT speakers. Measurements taken from the each speaker location to the main listening/viewing position (I know, these are not ideal but its what I got):

Left front: 14'
Left rear: 13'
Right front: 19.5'
Right rear: 16.5'

Two fronts will be about 25' apart
Two rears will be about 23' apart

The left rear is your worst case, but let's look at the Left Front as it is the worst case for your mains.
You need to measure your ear height when sitting on the sofa as you would when watching a movie. The height can vary widely depending on the design of your sofa/chair.

But for now, let's assume that your seated ear height is 3' and you mount the speakers so the tweeter is at 7'. So the height difference is 4'. If you look at the link below, you have a triangle with lengths of Side a = 4' and Side b = 14. Enter these numbers and hit "calculate" and you get Angle A = 16 degrees.* So, ideally, you would raise your seat or lower the speaker (assuming maximum 10 degree tilt).

Hit "reset" and let's work backwards. Enter Side B = 14, Angle A = 10, and "calculate". This shows the height difference should ideally be 29-5/8". Your speaker is 21" tall and the tweeter is in the center (10.5"), so it might be easier to look at it as 19" height difference between the base of the speaker and ear height (we can round off the extra 1/8").

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp

* not knowing how much math is in your background, the tilt of the mounts is the complement of Angle B (calculated as 90 minus Angle B).
In other words, for Angle B = 90 degrees, the tilt is 0. I think this is visually apparent if you look at the diagram.
Angle A happens to be the compliment of Angle B, so Angle A is the dimension you want.
Another way to look at it is Angle A is the angle from horizontal and the speaker mount angle is the angle from horizontal.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Hey Guys,

I have my electrician here whose brother installs HT systems in AZ. He is telling to think twice about buying a Denon AVR. He just put me on the phone with his brother in Arizona to settle our little discussion (awkward situation...lol) and this AV installer guy SWEARS BY YAMAHA and says to buy an RXA740 Yamaha or up to an RXA 1040 if I can afford it. He says the EQ does integrate the sub with YPAO and that Denon vs. Yamaha is more a Chevy vs. Ford taste in equipment argument than any real differences in the technology. I told him as much as I could about the Audyssey technology and he said Yamaha build quality has never let him down and that its room correction and EQ technology is comparable to Denon's Audyessy.

QUESTION:
Can anyone lay it out again for me specifically what the Denon advantage is with the Audyessy especially in a tricky room over the YPAO technology that Yamaha uses??