Need Guidance buying 5.1 HT Spkrs & Receiver

witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
Hi You might want to take your $1500 and start with the best receiver you can get and just the left and right channel speakers. Save more $$ and add the center channel, then the surrounds, etc.
 
C

Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
ALRIGHT, THE DAY HAd COME.....

Today was my Inaugural SPEAKER DAY chock full of speaker delight!!

First, I went drop of the WOOFIES from my pair of 1988 Cerwin Vega D-9s for reconditioning (My secondary mini Vintage Project) at Orange County Speaker Repair in Garden Grove. Then from there it was off to HSU Research in Anaheim to see about a sub, and finally to Ascend in San Clemente to pick up 4 340s plus the Center. The following is a report of my experiences with Hsu and Ascend and I will attempt to be as succinct and informative as I can on each. But they each deserve their own review so I will do it in 2 posts (The HSU post is much longer and has little tech info---more the visit itself)

Preface: I just will first have to say that I'm 42 and I was so geeked today that my Dad/Boss demanded to go with me to these places to see what all my fuss is about. So the adventure was a little more interesting (and I got to blow off work---Good Deal!!).

HSU Research product purchased: VTF-15H MK2
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html

I decided on purchasing this model instead of the VTF-3 MK5HP based on the recommendations of the Hsu techs. They requested I provide them different measurements in order to try to calculate the cubic feet of space and the different room openings etc. and based on what they thought of the room and going with one sub, they recommended the MK2.
This Item is BACKORDERED but expected in the next 2 weeks so I'm cool with waiting some.

Hsu is located in an industrial park with mostly small to medium sized businesses. The place is nice and modernly classy inside and they have a reception counter (great right??!!!!!:p) a showroom, and a HT Demo room (along with offices, warehousing, small call center etc). They require a little bit of notice because I imagine walk in clientele isn't the norm so we called ahead and then crashed in there way before our scheduled time.

We rang the bell at the front desk and a stern Vietnamese lady eventually emerged and told us that we were a half hour early, and they would NOT HELP US until the time we told them we would be there!!!! Then she just busts out laughing and says "Just kidding you!!!!!!" and she keeps laughing.....After talking with her and joking with her she was very very good natured and friendly and well before we got to speak to any tech guys there, my Dad was trying to use what bits of Vietnamese he THINKS he picked up in NAM in the ARMY during the war to see if she understood any of it. I thought she was going to be insulted but she laughed and laughed and she was just very welcoming and we talked about Vietnam.

I asked her where the best Bahn Mi Vietnamese sandwich place was (Little Saigon is not too far from Anaheim in Westminster) and she INSISTED....UTTERLY INSISTED, that we eat the BBQ Pork sandwich she had just bought herself for lunch. We told her NO THANK YOU, but she insisted because I showed interest, that we take it and she disappeared into the back. She returned with a Sandwich wrapped in paper, a knife and a bag of fresh baked baquettes and, she cut the sandwich in half, handed it to us each of us and then gave us some bread and then she called to the back office. A tech appeared with 2 7UPs..... All of this as we are REFUSING to eat the poor woman's food. Just odd, friendly and cool.

There we are, to buy a sub, instead, we are eating one!! It was a great sandwich but it was just soooooooo, NOT what happens when you go into most electronic businesses!!! You really get the small family company type of vibe. We wondered if this lady might be Dr. Hsu's wife?? I can't say enough about how friendly they were. I'm not blowing smoke.....

SO after eating a light late lunch in the lobby area dropping crumbs all over that we were ASSURED were OKAY....I began asking about placement. One of the techs was giving his advice and then he called "Doc Hsu" out to join the questions and Dr. Hsu came out. Older Asian man, really chill in a t-shirt and kinda messyish gray balding hair....Actually--Just like you'd expect a sound genius type of guy from MIT to look ;). I met him and he was a nice soft spoken man. Briefly, we all talked about my placement questions and then another tech named Kevin who had seen all of my numbers and knew I was coming in today took us to the showroom to check out the models--All side by side everything they sell as far as subs.

Kevin said that he'd really recommend the MK2 and he went into alot of specifics as far as my room layout and where the bass would seep out to and where he would place it for different effects as a front firing sub and why he thought it was a better fit even at $100 more and he said it is their flagship model and would be better even though some of the MK5 specs are the same on paper. He said its not night and day between the two, but it is very noticeable and the VOLUME OF BASS is different, its ported different etc. He said if my budget allowed, he'd say go MK2. I was NOT able to demo the MK5 but did the MK2 and was sold (true--no comparison was made I admit).

This MK2 thing is 110lbs and pretty damn big!!! I didn't want to put too much into the DEMO because it was in a perfectly calibrated HT demo room much unlike what I will have. But I moved around some and I was sitting 2 feet away at one point, from the MK2 and this thing felt like it was blowing the heck outta my pant legs with a bass bombardment!!!!! It was especially booming in film clips, (the Haunting, Master and Commander, and different Star Wars Movie clips). I was very impressed and then my Dad pulls the, "Can't you maybe put on something like Schindler's List, or As Good As it Gets or Shawshank?? I want to see how those would sound...." Kevin awkwardly responded, "Uhhhhhhh well let's see......We have 'HULK'????"

I sheepishly asked Kevin to just switch up and demo some music.

We listened to some decent but not crazy dominant bass tracks from various artists and we ran some jazz and then my Dad asked if they had any "Oldies". :confused::confused::mad: CMON MAN!!!! We ended up listening to Hotel California. Kevin was very understanding and accommodating under the circumstances. We were there for about an hour total. At my insistence, I prepaid for the MK2 and will be awaiting a call to roll over and grab it. Its MACHO GRANDE for sure!!

Overall, just a very very friendly small familyish (I don't know if anyone here is actually related or married!! Just felt like it...) business vibe that was at the same time professional and authoritatively informative. ALSO, Very down to earth dealing with us California Okies :)
I will tell you guys how everything goes on my return trip to grab that beast. But as my Dad so rightly put it, "Weeeellllll, if that big ol' freakin' speaker is as good as that lady's sandwich, it's gonna be an ass-kicker."
Thanks for comin' Dad.

Part 2 --- The Ascend experience--to follow in another post. Thanks for reading :D
 
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G

GIEGAR

Full Audioholic
Excellent write-up Clay! Thanks for taking the time. Your enthusiasm is catching.

Hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of adding a pic. I thought this was just great when I saw it:


Dr. Hsu and his wife Lang Hsu pose in front of their demo system at the NY Audio Show 2014.

Dr. Hsu let his extremely modest system speak for itself. With an Onkyo receiver and a Sony 5-disc CD changer—the stuff you will find on sale at Best Buy—Hsu managed to present a demo that was just as profound as the monster systems. I dare say that, during some classical orchestral music, the bass beat any of the 2-channel systems, price being no object! This came as no surprise to me; I've heard enough AVS members' systems to know that a powerful sub, a few high-efficiency 2-way speakers, a bit of acoustical room treatment, and a competent AVR can go a long way toward achieving audio nirvana.

Hsu Research introduced two new subs at the NY show, the $800 VTF-3MK5HP and the $900 VTF-15HMK2. The $800 sub performed the bass duties for Hsu's demos; it's rated at 119 dB peak output from 20 to 31.5 Hz. Hsu mated it with a pair of HB-1 MK2 horn-loaded bookshelf speakers ($160 each). The result had me thinking long and hard about the AVS members who argue that all well-engineered solid-state amps and DACs sound essentially the same when operating within specs—I think there's something to that perspective. As for the performance of various speakers at the show, the Hsu subwoofer/bookshelf system I heard costs under $1200, considerably less than one percent of the price of a pair of Focal Grande Utopias.
Full AVS article here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1710722-new-york-audio-show-2014-reality-check.html.

 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Cool update Clay. Waiting patiently for your experience with Ascend! :cool:
 
C

Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Hey Guys,

I gotta get back to my Holic Brothers!!! Hope everyone is well!!!

KEW, had to take a little time off myself!!

GIEGAR, Cool pic of the HSUs!!! (Mrs. Hsu doesn't seem to be the Sandwich lady from my visit!! So that's solved!! lol). Interesting to read the write up on that NY show also. Actually, we asked them if they went to the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Vegas and they said that specialty audio gets lost in the shuffle since that show has gotten so big and broad. They now prefer to do more "Audiophile Shows" in New York and a few other cities. I think he said they are going to something in Chicago this year.

QUICK UPDATE: Feels like I ain't been on here in weeks!!! I've had a birth in the family and have had a house full of relatives!!! UGGGHGHHHGH!! Today, they are all headed home so I get to GET MY GETS ON as far as OPENING UP MY TREASURES and doing some prewiring (I've never been so excited to crawl around under my house among the rat turds as I am today!!!! :p:p)

In addition to the CL3 14AWG speaker wire I am doing, I'm also running some Cat-6 Network lines from my Central Modem and Router Cabinet (all my LAN connects here) to my Receiver and TV area in case something could benefit from going hard wire instead of WiFi like the Receiver for example.

Although the Sub is still not in, I have all my Ascend Products (still gonna do a post on my Ascend Visit) and I bought 2 pairs of BT77 Clamp Mounts and a NEW Denon X4000 from Amazon (everything came yesterday) so I am gonna rewire the house and then I just gotta grab some different recessed wall plates and some HDMI cables and I'll be almost ready for FULL INSTALL MODE. (I HATE not having everything organized to work. My TAKE BACKS to Home Depot/Lowes are usually a few items but I'd rather do that than NOT have what I need.)

QUESTION:
Do any of you guys hook your AVRs up to your Routers via LAN connections?? Does anyone recommend doing this or NOT doing this for any reasons????
 
C

Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Hey TY,

I'll be doing my mounts this week so I'll be checking in to see how you are doing too. I am going to probably buy that Pressure Adhesive/Friction Pad stuff for under the speakers in the Clamp Mounts this week. L Bracket deal too.

I'm really ITCHING to open the mounts and the speakers and everything but I want to get the CRAPPY DIRTY WORK of rewiring out of the way before the getting to the GOOD STUFF!!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Well, I guess a birth in the family and being able to listen to your speakers has some import, but looking forward to hearing about your Ascend experience when you have the time. Also, I love that your dad went with you, fun to have the second perspective. Does he think you are crazed, or did he buy a pair of Ascends?
 
Ty Wayne

Ty Wayne

Audioholic
Clay, I currently have my CBM-170's clamed on the BT-77's with only the supplied nonstick pads they give you. I originally had the tilt at the level position, however I now have both of them fully tilted downward as much as the bracket allows. I check the speakers everyday to make sure they are still secure, and they have remained to be so. I feel confident about the speakers being secured in the clamps at this point. Having said all that, tomorrow I intend to rig up some sort of safety device to actually tie the speaker to the clamp just in case, though I wont be drilling any holes.

Overall, Im very pleased with the clamps and feel quite good about them. But taking extra precautions is never a bad thing. Don't get snake bit under the house. :eek: Have fun getting everything in order and Im looking forward to hearing back from you on your experience and impressions of the speakers. :D
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
Clay, I finally just read your entire post. Love the HSU account. Can't wait to read about the Ascend visit.
I don't have as long a list on speakers, I've owned or heard, as some people on the forum. That being said, I'm not at all surprised you went with Ascend. I have no reservations on recommending them to anyone looking for great sound. No disrespect meant to all of the other great speakers out there.
Congratulations on your new system and more importantly your new family member. ;)
 
ecologydoc

ecologydoc

Junior Audioholic
Hey Guys,
QUESTION:
Do any of you guys hook your AVRs up to your Routers via LAN connections?? Does anyone recommend doing this or NOT doing this for any reasons????
I hooked up my Onkyo TX-NR929 to the router with a long ethernet cable under the floor; works great. I thought it would be more reliable and consistent and faster than depending on wireless.
 
C

Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Zieglj01, great post man!!! My sub is supposed to be in around the second week of Feb. So I will be returning to get it soon and.....


Speaking of HSU, I called to see what they recommend as far as the sub cable just to see what they'd say because I am going to run it in-wall like all the other wiring, and their tech guy said just to use old RG6 Coax and just use the RCA Adapter to screw in to the F. I am actually using spool RG6 for this 15ft run if I follow their advice which I'm leaning toward. SO I will have to crimp my own RCAS straight on the coax----no adapter which is one less intervening item.


HSU Tech said that its a low frequency and that good quality coax with the shielding they have is what they recommend. They also said, "Why you wanna spend lotsa money on cable if you have new coax?? Waste of money!!"


CULTURAL SIDE NOTE:

For those who recall the HSU Sandwich experience, here is the YELP link for the place the Bahn Mi sandwich came from. BBQ Pork!! Just a little backstory in case you are ever in Little Saigon. Enjoy!


http://www.yelp.com/biz/bánh-mì-chè-cali-westminster-3




QUESTION:

What do you guys think of using RG6 as my in-wall sub cable?? Does anyone want to dispute the HSU Tech??
:p:p

Does anyone have a recommend where to go to grab a decent pair of RCA ends for RG6 termination?? I haven't seen if some are better than others or what.
 
C

Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Hey Dudes,


TO CLARIFY: Thanks for all the kind words about the new birth and all. BUT she is actually my Brother's new baby and that's what I meant by new birth. I have had to host visiting friends and family off and on since I live very close and I live alone with room to spare. o_Oo_OBUT I'm OVER IT!!:confused::confused: I certainly didn't mean to imply I was a new father. I'm just an Uncle..... My speakers are gonna be my babies soon though AAAND they don't go on dates with punk kids in skinny jeans!!!!!!!!


Anyway, its been a while since I could give an update. I really appreciate the posts from you all.

I gotta get with TY WAYNE ASAP as I will be beginning my big install tomorrow having run all my wiring now.


WIRING/CABLE/CONNECTORS SUMMARY:

14 AWG CL3 from OutdoorSpeakerDepot--(I went with exterior grade speaker wire because my longest run was an exterior run so I just got a big 250 ft roll--plenty extra). I went with 14 AWG because Dave Fabrikant the owner and ALL EVERYTHING at Ascend recommended it except for extremely long runs. He even commented that 16 AWG (GASP!!!!!!!!!:eek:) would do fine with short runs. Interesting

Connectors -- Banana plugs from Blue Jeans. I ordered the compression ones. I will not be yanking them in and out once everything is set. The locking Bananas just looked really bulky and unnecessary for my application IMO.

HDMI -- The BJC Series-FE 28 AWG HDMI Cable from Blue Jeans in 15ft, 3ft, and 2ft lengths with the 15 ft going AVR to TV in-wall. This was their best cable and its pricey IMO. The 15ft was $41!!!!

CAT6 from Lowes--I ran two lines from my central network cabinet in my hallway where my modem and router are to my entertainment area/AVR site for possible Direct Wiring to the network--I still need to terminate the Cat6 which looks FUN
:mad:
)--had this cable brand new on hand left from previous wiring.

Recessed Wall BOX--- I bought a couple of interesting multi gang recessed boxes from AV Express made by Arlington Industries out of Scranton, PA (Yep, Scranton) that I will be using for my entertainment center wiring. The box will house 4 electrical outlets and wiring management for the in-wall wiring to connect to the AVR. The recessed design should allow an entertainment center cabinet to be nearly flush to the wall because no plugs or connectors are coming from the wall. ( I bought 2 and will see which works best )

http://www.av-express.com/AV-Catalog/Wall-Plates/Arlington-TVB713-Recessed-TV-Box-with-Angled-Openings-free-shipping

http://www.av-express.com/AV-Catalog/Recessed-TV-Boxes/Arlington-recessed-tv-box-TVB613



While I don't yet have my sub, I have everything else ordered and in shipping or piled in my room (Blue Jeans is shipping tomorrow).


SOOOO TOMORROW IS THE BIG DAY.......ALMOST!!! I will be starting the mounting of everything. I will be having to do some major stud preparation for the mounting sites and also mounting the Recessed TV Mount along with running the sub cable in wall. I may actually not have the 340s mounted and hooked up until next week with tomorrow being Thursday.

Still gotta rig up a center shelf for the Center 340 too.........


I will update on the install as it unfolds.......ALSO gotta post the lowdown on my Ascend Visit and what their recommendations are (some I have mentioned above). Sorry for lagging:oops::oops: SO LITTLE TIME lately!!!

This too shall pass................
 
C

Clay Bertrand

Junior Audioholic
Ecologydoc,

Thanks for the note about the Network direct wiring. I plan to try it as well for the same reason you mentioned. I mean, WiFi is great. But if you can direct wire its generally always better.

Also, with so many things using WiFi, any alleviation of the devices using the WiFi is a no brainer if that option exists IMO. I ran 2 lines. I'm not sure about Pass-Thru but the HDMI Cables I bought are supposed to support Ethernet. I'm hopin to not have to plug in anything but my AVR.

I'm trying to be as efficient as I can with how everything goes together.

Thanks for commenting.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Speaking of HSU, I called to see what they recommend as far as the sub cable just to see what they'd say because I am going to run it in-wall like all the other wiring, and their tech guy said just to use old RG6 Coax and just use the RCA Adapter to screw in to the F. I am actually using spool RG6 for this 15ft run if I follow their advice which I'm leaning toward. SO I will have to crimp my own RCAS straight on the coax----no adapter which is one less intervening item.

QUESTION:

What do you guys think of using RG6 as my in-wall sub cable?? Does anyone want to dispute the HSU Tech?? :p:p

Does anyone have a recommend where to go to grab a decent pair of RCA ends for RG6 termination?? I haven't seen if some are better than others or what.
RG-6 is just what you want for sub woofer cable. If your RG-6 already has F terminals, use simple RCA adapters like these: http://www.parts-express.com/f-female-to-rca-female-adapter--090-283

http://www.parts-express.com/f-female-to-rca-male-adapter--090-369

They also have adapters like these but have the fitting to mount them onto a wall plate.
http://www.parts-express.com/gold-rca-female-to-f-female-with-nut-hex-type--091-1200

If you have bulk RG-6 and want to terminate it yourself, use compression connectors, not the crimp-on type. The compression connectors have an O ring to seal out moisture.

You'll need a compression tool such as:
http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-compression-tool-3-in-1-for-f-rca-bnc--360-046

A variety of compression terminals are sold for F, RCA, and BNC connections. They come in different diameters to fit RG-59, RG-6, and Quadshield RG-6 coax. So pay attention to the cable you have.

Parts Express sells through its own web site and through Amazon. On Amazon, its easier to find stuff if you know the PE part number.
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
I just looked up RG6 cable.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RG-6#Applications

From what I read it has an 18 GA center conductor. Isn't the center your + conductor? If so, wouldn't a heavier gauge be beneficial?
Also, RG6 used for SDI interface has a copper braid for improved impedance stability. Would this not also be beneficial?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
What do you guys think of using RG6 as my in-wall sub cable?? Does anyone want to dispute the HSU Tech??
:p:p
The great thing about dealing with Hsu (and his staff) is you can rest assured that he has obsessed over everything to do with getting the best sound from your subwoofer.
There are two people who will tell you you need to spend big bucks on cable:
1) People who profit from the sale of over-priced cable.
2) People who have bought over-priced cable and are not willing to admit that it was a waste of money. They will talk all day about how much the sound improved by changing the cable. But the bottom line is if a lab cannot measure a change in the signal between cables, why would you expect to hear one.
I think it is safe to say modern instruments are very capable at measuring changes in electrical signals.

Personally, I kind of wince at the BJ HDMI cable for $41!
Just for future reference:
Ultimately, HDMI is a digital signal and the beauty of digital signals is the are digital, as in on or off. Thus, interference that might introduce noise has to be strong enough to switch an "on" to an "off" or vice verse. Within practical applications, such interference does not exist.
So, as far as data transmission goes, as long as the wires and connections are intact, you are good!
I look for 2 things in HDMI cables:
1) Ends that are injection molded (encapsulated in plastic) because I figure the wire where it meets the plug is a failure point and being fully encased prevents any physical stress at this contact.
2) Flexibility -
a) going between the components I have had far more problems with cables being too stiff than any other failures. Sometimes this results in a cable sliding out of the connection if I shift the gear or other times, I just can feel a side-load or torque in the cable as I force it straight to plug it in. I don't want mechanical force on the cable or the terminals of my components! Something like this is my ideal:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NNRR74/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is a slim cable with not much of a plastic sheath around the wire, but like I said interference really is not a concern.
b) In wall, or across floor, I would go with a thicker sheathing to resist abrasion, vermin chewing on it (cats, puppies, mice/squirrel, etc - not fool proof, but better than the slim cable), stepping on/kinking, etc. But even here, If you are connecting it to your AVR with only 2 inches of clearance between the AVR back and the wall behind it, a stiff cord can damage itself or your AVR when it is bent so tightly. I like something like this. It comes with a right angle adapter to assist, but double check that the adapter goes the right way. Typically you do not want an adapter that turns up from your AVR unless you are running an exposed cable to your TV.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BEWF4R2/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
LOL that is about the net sum of everything I know about buying HDMI cables, but I think it is pretty much all you need to know!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I just looked up RG6 cable.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RG-6#Applications

From what I read it has an 18 GA center conductor. Isn't the center your + conductor? If so, wouldn't a heavier gauge be beneficial?
Also, RG6 used for SDI interface has a copper braid for improved impedance stability. Would this not also be beneficial?
I think you are thinking in terms of speaker level connections. Since the sub cable is line level, it does not take a thick wire to prevent losses.
The biggest concern with a sub cable is interference. If you lay it along side and parallel to an AC cable, you will likely pick up interference (this goes for in-wall installations as well). As long as they only cross at right angle, you are good.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The line level signal is relatively low voltage, and the next thing that will happen is that it gets amplified by the sub's amp. The shielding is probably much more important than the gauge. If the sub cable picked some EMI noise, and it then got amplified, it might sound really bad.

For coax cable, RG6 at 18 g is thick. If I remember, RG59 is thinner. 22-24 g?
 
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