Why do AH's own or wanting to own separate amps whether they need them or not?

[PENG]

Questions keep popping up about whether separates (pre, prepro, power amps) would make their systems sound better, and I bet 9 out of 10 ended up owning one or more anyway, regardless of the feedback they received. I have my own reasons, sound quality was the main one for my first purchase but not the subsequent puchases. Care to share your reasons, or motivations? Did you go for price, power, topology, physical features, look, or something else?

If you feel there are psychological reasons underneath (hint: think flame suit), feel free to name them if you feel you are qualified to comment on those.

 

[markw]

Pretty much the same reasons some people want cars that can go 150 mph.

 

[Rickster71]

That's a good question.
For me it's always been an issue of real estate.
Packing more and more features into a finite space. IMO that means there has to be trade offs. Some that come to mind first, are smaller power caps and smaller heat sinking, due to space constraints.

The more components and options added to a circuit pack make it more difficult to separate analogue and digital sections of the board to optimum distances.

An advantage of separates is the ability to pick and choose the amp you want and the preamp you want.
Separates are easier to repair, since there is more interior space and access to components.

 

[cpp]

Well I own both, separates for my 2 chl room and a AVR for my HT. My speakers in my HT room are efficient and I once had my LR connected to my ATI2002 and really could hear any difference between the ATI and the Denon 4311ci power so I removed the ATI.

 

[panteragstk]

I've never owned separates, but if I did my logic would be getting the heat from the amp away from the video circuits that seem to be sensitive to heat (Onkyo HDMI boards). Even then that isn't that good of a reason considering most companies that design receivers have solved that problem (except onkyo apparently).

I hope my receiver can't hear me.

The only other reason would be if I ever had a very large theater room and needed lots of wattage with long cable runs. Balanced connectors would help that.

With most modern receivers having 90% of the technology in separates it gets more difficult to justify the extra expense. Having said that, it looks like most manufacturers reserve some features for the highest end model so it would make sense if you had to have that feature.

 

[herbu]

I become interested when I see debate among the experts... "you need it" vs "you don't need it". I read all the arguments from people who know much more than me, and the debate continues. It tells me the answer is likely gray, not black or white. In the case of subjective audio, I interpret "gray" to mean it probably helps is certain situations, but not all, and maybe not even most.

When I was building for retirement, HT equipment was nice, but not near the top of my priorities. Now I'm there, spend more time with HT & music, have some discretionary funds, HT stuff moved higher on my list and I started researching and putting together a new system. Got the AVR and speakers, and it sounded great, but I kept reading the amp debate. Finally I figured I could either keep wondering about it, or spend $1k and find out... so I found out.

Now, thanks in large part to people in this forum, I run a Denon X4000 through an Emotive XPA-5 for the 5 main channels. Can I say for sure it sounds better w/ the amp? If my wife asks, "absolutely". If ya'll ask, "maybe... sometimes... OK, I'm not really sure". But for the remainder of my golden years, I will never have to wonder if my stuff would sound better with an amp. Peace of mind for $1k. (And the LEDs sequencing during power-up look really cool.)

I'm happy.

 

[Steve81]

Peace of mind for $1k.

That's what it came down to for me. I don't have any voices in the back of my head wondering how a 50+ pound separate amplifier is coping with 5 channels worth of complex, low impedance loads (down into the 3 ohm range in some cases). With my old Onkyo that would get hot enough to fry an egg, even with the benefit of a fan, well...

 

[Adam]

With my old Onkyo that would get hot enough to fry an egg, even with the benefit of a fan, well...

I'll say it again - "hot" to electronics is far different than "hot" to a person. You can fry an egg at around 55°C, and electronics in commercial products like receivers can typically operate in ambient air conditions up to and beyond 85°C.

For the original question - I bought amps because I was reading posts here about amps, I was bored, I wanted something new, and so I bought some. I really had no use for them. And, given the poor experiences that I had with Emotiva, I wish that I would have just left well enough alone and used my receiver.

 

[herbu]

Can I say for sure it sounds better w/ the amp? If my wife asks, "absolutely".

Just took Gene's test. Scored a 5. HA! Vindicated! Justified! Bonafide! "See, baby?!? I told you we needed an amp! Who's the man? WHO'S THE MAN?!?!"

 

[Rickster71]

For those interested, here is a link to some info on heat vs life of electronics.
Capacitors, Part 7 "Electrolytic Capacitors [2]" | Electronics ABC | TDK Techno Magazine | TDK Global
For every rise in operating temp by 10 degrees, the service life is shortened by one half.

 

[3db]

Questions keep popping up about whether separates (pre, prepro, power amps) would make their systems sound better, and I bet 9 out of 10 ended up owning one or more anyway, regardless of the feedback they received. I have my own reasons, sound quality was the main one for my first purchase but not the subsequent puchases. Care to share your reasons, or motivations? Did you go for price, power, topology, physical features, look, or something else?

If you feel there are psychological reasons underneath (hint: think flame suit), feel free to name them if you feel you are qualified to comment on those.

In my current home with my current setup, it would be a total waste of time for me to go the seperates root. Gene's article confirmed this too. On the plus side, the money saved on not spending on seperates can go to buying vinyl, CDs and blurays.

 

[Irvrobinson]

1. I prefer the design and construction choices made for some separates.

2. I prefer to have the sources and line level components near my listening seat.

3. I prefer to have the amplifiers near the speakers.

4. Because I can.

 

[Steve81]

I'll say it again - "hot" to electronics is far different than "hot" to a person. You can fry an egg at around 55°C, and electronics in commercial products like receivers can typically operate in ambient air conditions up to and beyond 85°C.

No doubt. Of course it's worth noting that I never measured how the receiver actually got, I just did my best to provide air flow and observed that it got substantially hotter than other AVRs I had used. To its credit, the Onkyo never gave me much trouble through the day I sold it. However, there are always caveats. As Rick notes, jumps in temperature do correlate with shorter life spans (and obviously not just with capacitors). In the case of an amplifier, keeping things cool is also helpful in terms of the SOA of the output devices.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I like collecting things.

I already have an ATI AT3005, AT3002, AT2004, and AT6012.

So I would like to also get the AT1202 & AT1802 to complete the set.

Don't even mention the ATI Signature amp, RichB, because in my mind it's just another AT3000 series amp with some fancy parts.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now, thanks in large part to people in this forum, I run a Denon X4000 through an Emotive XPA-5 for the 5 main channels.

How hot does the X4000 get?

My Denon 3312 gets really hot. I use a fan to cool it for extended use >2hrs.

I was just wondering if the X4000 does a getter job with heat dissipation than the 3312.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Subjective reasons for buying separates:

1. Aesthetic. Let us say that I love the McIntosh aesthetic. Since they don't make Receivers, I have to buy separates.

2. Flexibility. I own subs and speakers that use external amplification because I feel it offers me more flexibility in terms of changing amps, especially if the amp becomes defective. So I buy external amps to power my subwoofers and speakers alike.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my current home with my current setup, it would be a total waste of time for me to go the seperates root. Gene's article confirmed this too. On the plus side, the money saved on not spending on seperates can go to buying vinyl, CDs and blurays.

Separates are definitely not cost effective to me. They sure don't save me any money. They waste my money for sure. And I have wasted a lot of money.

But in my mind, maybe it's because I'm a little obsessive-compulsive and worry about things I should not, separate amps offer a convenient way to "fix" the problems (that haven't even occurred).

I've never had an amp malfunction either externally or internally (inside subs and speakers). But I hear about my friends having those issues. So I think it's a matter of time before the same thing happens to me.

 

[Swerd]

Questions keep popping up about whether separates (pre, prepro, power amps) would make their systems sound better, and I bet 9 out of 10 ended up owning one or more anyway, regardless of the feedback they received. I have my own reasons, sound quality was the main one for my first purchase but not the subsequent puchases. Care to share your reasons, or motivations? Did you go for price, power, topology, physical features, look, or something else?

I initially did not believe high power was needed for speaker amplification, and I always avoided playing the "mine is bigger than yours" game. While attending local DIY speaker builder meetings, I met a guy named Bob Cordell who convinced me to get high enough power so that the amp never clips while driving my speakers. He is an EE who at an earlier time in his career, actually designed audio amplifiers. In an on-line interview, he once spelled out his experiences and views. You may have seen this before, but it is relevant to your thread: Pjay Speaker gurus Bob Cordell

Without getting into how power is measured, how much power do we really need?
Much more than we think. Ideally, if you are really serious about high-end audio, your amplifier should never, ever clip. In reality, amps clip more often than we think, especially on well-recorded music that has high dynamic range, and especially when driving speakers with efficiencies in the low to mid 80's. My 250 WPC amplifier will occasionally wink at me with its clip LEDs (every amp should have them!) when driving my Morel M3 speakers with well-recorded music at levels that are realistic but certainly not painful. Remember, the peak-to-average power ratio (crest factor) of well-recorded music is quite high. The average level is what drives us out of the room, while it is the peak level that impresses us with effortless dynamics. If a 100 Watt amplifier is adequate for a speaker with 91 dB sensitivity, you need a 400 watt amplifier for a speaker with only 85 dB sensitivity. Put together inefficient small-diameter woofers with adequate baffle step compensation and you have a recipe for a speaker with small net efficiency, often less than 85 dB.

When I bought used separate amps, I went for price and power. I looked to pay about $1 per watt. And I looked for amps that were at least 3× the rated power available on my existing receivers. I bought a 105 wpc amp to replace a 30 wpc stereo receiver, and later got a 200 wpc stereo amp to replace the left and right channels of a 70 wpc AVR. Why 3×? Because 2× was not enough increase and 10× did not seem achievable. So I compromised and increased power by a half log instead of a full log.

 

[jinjuku]

That's a good question.
For me it's always been an issue of real estate.
Packing more and more features into a finite space. IMO that means there has to be trade offs. Some that come to mind first, are smaller power caps and smaller heat sinking, due to space constraints.

The more components and options added to a circuit pack make it more difficult to separate analogue and digital sections of the board to optimum distances.

An advantage of separates is the ability to pick and choose the amp you want and the preamp you want.
Separates are easier to repair, since there is more interior space and access to components.

It's Moore Law. Crowns DriveCore is capable of 125 Watts with out a separate output section. All from a chip. They have an 8 channel version in 1 RU.

Silicon is driving down the need for discrete components driven at the 10's of watts into packages smaller than a postage stamp driven with 3.3 or 1.4 volts and tolerances that make fancy 1% caps and resistors look downright sloppy in there tolerances. Reducing the need for larger value caps and obviously the real estate needed.

 

[RichB]

Price and power, topology:
For amps I started with Sunfire, not cheap but cool running power must be good right.
Now, I gone traditional A/B, Parasound amps.
In the end it is about performance. The Salons can handle clean power and my ears can handle the volume, for short periods, anyway.

physical features, look, or something else?
Happy wife, happy life. Need I say more


I began using separates when it was clear the received (in the 90's) were not getting it done.
Later, preamp technology seemed to be constant flux, so separating them from the amps seemed like a good idea.

For Music, a good/preamp DAC feeding the amps is all I need. Less seems better. I forgot that for a while.
Is this hobby is listening or the gear. I love both, but listening is more important.

- Rich