Yamaha or Denon for build quality and audio quality

[M Code]

And let me clear a couple of points about transformer theory and operation characteristics as you stated the "(2) key components" incorrectly. The facts are:

1) Transformer saturation is more to do with the core design, material used, and its construction, not the winding gauge, though the winding gauge will of course affect overall performance. If anything, everything else being equal, smaller guage means higher resistance, less current capacity, higher voltage drop and therefore would less likely result in saturation. Again, that is if everything else being equal, i.e. same core material, design and construction. In the real world obviously heavier gauge winding will be matched with better quality core.

2) Thinner gauge wires means higher resistance, higher voltage drop, lower current carrying capacity, higher "copper loss (I²R).

3) Poor transformer core design and construction means higher iron losses due mainly to hysteresis and eddy currents and poor core design/construction would also result in reaching the saturation point sooner as the input voltage increases to match the load demand rise. There are also external factors such as the quality (e.g. harmonic contents) of the incoming power supply, that could also lead to earlier core saturation.



As I mentioned, you seem to be an insider in this business so I'll take your words that you have the actual BOM, so no argument here. It would be great if you could confirm the VA ratings of the transformers and the associated capacitors specs (uF and voltage rating) for the RX-A3030 and the AVR-4520 CI. That would tell us which one has a stronger power supply but you probably are not supposed to publicize such information if they are considered proprietary and/or confidential.

Lets get back to the real world..
The point of weaker power power supplies applies more to the AVR categories priced <$999 and under which is 80% of the market. The higher priced AVRs SRP > $999 have higher profit margin and have more room within their BOM.
Basic economics drive the transformer cost, both iron and copper are the key elements and their world market prices have increased 3-5x in cost over the last 4 years....
Regarding specific coil windings, since the thinner 28 guage of copper vs. the thicker 20 guage, more turns of the 28 guage equals less copper use than that of 18 guage...
Less copper, lower cost.. The transformer wound with 28 guage can put out the same voltage output as one wound with 18 guage, but the thinner wire has poorer heat handling capability and will heat up/saturate earlier.. Basic physics..
Regarding iron, a higher content of recycled materials are used, and China is the biggest market for importing recycled metals...

To better understand the dynamics of component costs, one needs to understand the Chinese culture and market.. China as a country has little natural resources, so they must outsource, recycle and/or import the crucial raw materials. China continues to drive their exports, but check closely with people in the know and they will confirm the quality and reliability of components and finshed products built in China are typically of lower quality compared to those built in Japan. This is very obvious with the higher failure rates of Denon AVRs assembled in China versus those built in Japan, typically 2-3x higher...

Additionally, it is pertinent to understand the corporate reality of Denon...
A couple of years back, Denon enjoyed a top position in the AVR market.. Oursourcing the cheaper AVRs from China while building the mid-line and up in Japan..
Next, they decided to increase their market share and got very price aggressive with their AVRs..
Unfortunately in the process they increased their distribution channels to include many unauthorized internet and big-box sellers, and they lost the support of the installer specialist which was their most profitable customer. Also Denon is part of D&M holdings, which was totally stripped by the takeover by Bain Capitol (Mitt Romney), who promptly shredded their sales, marketing and engineering teams..


Just my $0.05...

 

[PENG]

Lets get back to the real world..
The point of weaker power power supplies applies more to the AVR categories priced <$999 and under which is 80% of the market. The higher priced AVRs SRP > $999 have higher profit margin and have more room within their BOM.
Basic economics drive the transformer cost, both iron and copper are the key elements and their world market prices have increased 3-5x in cost over the last 4 years....
Regarding specific coil windings, since the thinner 28 guage of copper vs. the thicker 20 guage, more turns of the 28 guage equals less copper use than that of 18 guage...
Less copper, lower cost.. The transformer wound with 28 guage can put out the same voltage output as one wound with 18 guage, but the thinner wire has poorer heat handling capability and will heat up/saturate earlier.. Basic physics..
Regarding iron, a higher content of recycled materials are used, and China is the biggest market for importing recycled metals...

To better understand the dynamics of component costs, one needs to understand the Chinese culture and market.. China as a country has little natural resources, so they must outsource, recycle and/or import the crucial raw materials. China continues to drive their exports, but check closely with people in the know and they will confirm the quality and reliability of components and finshed products built in China are typically of lower quality compared to those built in Japan. This is very obvious with the higher failure rates of Denon AVRs assembled in China versus those built in Japan, typically 2-3x higher...

Additionally, it is pertinent to understand the corporate reality of Denon...
A couple of years back, Denon enjoyed a top position in the AVR market.. Oursourcing the cheaper AVRs from China while building the mid-line and up in Japan..
Next, they decided to increase their market share and got very price aggressive with their AVRs..
Unfortunately in the process they increased their distribution channels to include many unauthorized internet and big-box sellers, and they lost the support of the installer specialist which was their most profitable customer. Also Denon is part of D&M holdings, which was totally stripped by the takeover by Bain Capitol (Mitt Romney), who promptly shredded their sales, marketing and engineering teams..


Just my $0.05...

Again, I am not arguing with your insider's view but your understanding of basic physics and electrical theory is lacking. If you chose to live in your misconception world that is your business and I won't waste my time any more. If you change your mind and want to learn something about transformer design, construction, material choice and have a good understanding of what core loss, copper loss, permeabiltiy and satuation, you don't need to get an EE degree, just Google wisely, and I mean wisely.

Have a good evening.

 

[PENG]

Regarding specific coil windings, since the thinner 28 guage of copper vs. the thicker 20 guage, more turns of the 28 guage equals less copper use than that of 18 guage...
Less copper, lower cost.. The transformer wound with 28 guage can put out the same voltage output as one wound with 18 guage, but the thinner wire has poorer heat handling capability and will heat up/saturate earlier.. Basic physics..
Regarding iron, a higher content of recycled materials are used, and China is the biggest market for importing recycled metals...

To be fair, I should comment this much: Of course thinner wire has lower current handling capacity hence lower VA rating than if you use heavier gauge, but saturation is about the core and has to do with magetisation, not the winding, winding is copper (or aluminum for lower cost) and that's why losses in the windings are often referred to as copper loss and you have your cause and effect regarding satuation wrong. Yes it is basic physics but you still have to understand the basic electrical and electromagnetic (still branch of physics) theories.

By the way your earlier post both I and 3 dB responded to was about your apparent misconception of the term regulated power supply. There is a term known as transformer regulation, but that refers to voltage regulation, i.e. voltage variation between no load to full load so transformers that use thinner gauge would naturally have higher regulation or simply higher voltage drop.

If you are interested in understanding more about transformer/inductor saturation, try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic).

 

[M Code]

Again, I am not arguing with your insider's view but your understanding of basic physics and electrical theory is lacking. If you chose to live in your misconception world that is your business and I won't waste my time any more. If you change your mind and want to learn something about transformer design, construction, material choice and have a good understanding of what core loss, copper loss, permeabiltiy and satuation, you don't need to get an EE degree, just Google wisely, and I mean wisely.

Have a good evening.

A transformer is a simple device, not rocket science...
Really hasn't changed much over the last 100 years..
We understand the physics and resulting electrical performance specs due to material varibles quite well, unfortunately a power transformer is not a perfect, ideal device.
As stated previously, there are trade-offs...
In fact we have spent considerable time in China @ the request of a major audio brand to negotiate/fix for certain power transformer shortcomings before mass production start..
There is no subsitute for hands-on experience, versus googling some random info..

Just my $0.05..

 

[PENG]

A transformer is a simple device, not rocket science...
Really hasn't changed much over the last 100 years..
We understand the physics and resulting electrical performance specs due to material varibles quite well, unfortunately a power transformer is not a perfect, ideal device.
As stated previously, there are trade-offs...
In fact we have spent considerable time in China @ the request of a major audio brand to negotiate/fix for certain power transformer shortcomings before mass production start..
There is no subsitute for hands-on experience, versus googling some random info..

Just my $0.05..

No problem with your hand-on experience part and I do respect your knowledge on the product side, always read your posts too for the same reason. My issue with your posts are solely with the transformer theory part. Surely no one has said it was rocket science, the term has not been used until now by you. You do need to understand the basic theory if you make comments based on such basic theory. The way you talk about regulated power supply and transformer saturation clearly shows you may not have enough understanding of what you yourself referred to as "basic" physics related to transformers. I fully understand it won't be your intention to present false information (your transformer comments) but I felt compelled to do my part to present the related facts. Really enough for the day, for now anyway...

 

[3db]

Mcode,

You never responded about the loosely verses tightly regulated power supplies. I'm not sure what you mean by that but in terms of power supplies, regulation is what I described. Both Peng and I are electrical engineers and we are both well versed in the operation of power supplies and transformer theory. What PENG has described is technically accurate. It would appear that you have considerable knowledge from a manufactuing point of view in terms of supplies and the components that these suppliers use. I think the misunderstanding lies in your inaccurate use of some of your technical terms. The manufacturing side is a total different beast then the engineering side and perhaps the jargon over laps.

 

[PENG]

I also want to repeat what I did agree on before, that heavy guage of course means higher current capabiltiy but that really is stating the obvious. Besides, if we consider a say 1200 VA transformer such as those used in something like a XPA-2 or Parasound Halo A21, the following would apply.

1) Assuming we don't know the secondary voltage but the primary voltage for US/Canada would be around 120 V AC.
2) Since VA=V X I, so the rated current would be at least 1200/120 or 10A, if we factor in losses, the 1200 VA rated transformer would have to be rated for a little over 10A.

Let's assume the rated current is 11A on the primary (120V) side, then the primary winding wire gauge will have to be sized for 11A. That therefore dictates the gauge and you just can't go cheap by using 28 AWG. If you use 28 AWG, there is no way you can rate the transformer 1200 VA at 120V on the primary side. So using smaller gauge wire in windings will yield lower VA rating, but does not automatically mean causing the transformer to saturate earlier and in fact the opposite could be true. For a given transformer core characteristics, the higher the magnetizing current in the primary winding, the sooner the saturation point would be reached.

 

[dano473]

Currently Feb 2015 stateside. Have a onkyo tx-sr876 pair of jbl s12, 2 pair jbl s38 and a jbl s center channel speaker. The onkyo is 140x7. The hdmi board is out and everything is hookup analog or optical. Want a seven channel hd receiver. Can still find the Yamaha rx-a1030 for $700 us. Would like to listen to my music from a desktop computer using 7 channel stereo mode on the Yamaha. When reading this forum about the Yamaha power supple makes me think different about that idea. Would I have problems if I listen to music on volume 35db or 40db? This Yamaha has a sabre chip which sounds sexy. Would think about getting the rx-a2020 but then I am buying refurb. Have two friends that have the rx-v675 and I love the on screen menus. Figure the rx-a1030 is a step up. Will I gain sound but not power by changing from the onkyo to Yamaha?

 

[Ponzio]

This Yamaha has a sabre chip which sounds sexy.

I believe only the RX-A3030 has the Sabre 32 DAC chip; the 1030 & 2030 have different versions of the ESS DAC chips.

 

[PENG]

I believe only the RX-A3030 has the Sabre 32 DAC chip; the 1030 & 2030 have different versions of the ESS DAC chips.

Correct, just like Denon, only the flag ship model AVRs and the prepros has the 32 bit version.

 

[PottyTrained]

I have a Denon in my bedroom and a Yamaha in the TV room and I noticed when I changed the Denon for the Yamaha in the TV room (when I bought the new Yamaha) the vocal's from shows was much harder to understand.
Just a thought.

 

[3db]

I have a Denon in my bedroom and a Yamaha in the TV room and I noticed when I changed the Denon for the Yamaha in the TV room (when I bought the new Yamaha) the vocal's from shows was much harder to understand.
Just a thought.

Everything was level matched, room corrections run etc?

 

[sawzalot]

I like the Yammy so far, never tried a Denon product but dollar wise I think I have an outstanding unit here. Yamaha RX A 1030 .

 

[Seth=L]

Yamaha & HK seem to put some limits on their 5CH & 7CH outputs, but their 2CH outputs are good.

Power Output 2CH 8 ohms/ 2CH 4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms:

$1200 Denon 3312- 143.3/225.5/103W
$1200 Yamaha 1020- 129.2/173.0/73.2W
$1000 HK 3700- 170.2/280.4/40.6W

$580 Denon 1913- 117.7/151.1/81.7W
$550 Yamaha 573- 111.4/126.2/24.9W
$450 Yamaha 473- 96.5/143.2/Protection mode
$350 Denon 1612- 110.3/150.7/78.1W

So even a $350 Denon outputs more power x 5CH than both the $1200 Yamaha & $1,000 HK AVR.

For 2Ch, HK is pretty great. But the 5Ch (40W) and 7Ch (33W) really suck.

Harman likes to advertise their Logic7 DSP, which is like 7CH Stereo mode. But @ 33WPC x 7Ch, that might not cut it if your volume is even a little high and/or speakers are 4 ohms/low sensitivity, etc.

SMPS doesn't like the load I guess.

 

[Sachb]

I don't know what's the hype about Denon/Audyssey combo, after owning 2 Denon recievers (X500, X2300W), and replacing it with Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080 all I can say is my Speakers have gotten livelier, and sound is so much more robust with lots of mids and midbass to it.

With Denon AVRs music sounded tiny/Shrill with lack of details and mids.

I think Yamaha makes better AVRs, and they focus on quality rather than quantity.

Also, my VCR never worked using Denon Reciever, but it worked on the yamaha just fine with the RCA cable.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know what's the hype about Denon/Audyssey combo, after owning 2 Denon recievers (X500, X2300W), and replacing it with Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080 all I can say is my Speakers have gotten livelier, and sound is so much more robust with lots of mids and midbass to it.

With Denon AVRs music sounded tiny/Shrill with lack of details and mids.

I think Yamaha makes better AVRs, and they focus on quality rather than quantity.

Also, my VCR never worked using Denon Reciever, but it worked on the yamaha just fine with the RCA cable.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

I am a Yamaha fan.

I never liked any Room Correction EQ - Audyssey, YPAO, ARC, Dirac, etc. You might feel the same.

When you switched to Yamaha and didn't use any room EQ, you probably preferred the sound without any room EQ.

Thus, I don't think it was a case of Denon SQ vs Yamaha SQ. I think it was a case of EQ (Audyssey) vs No EQ (Yamaha).

I think if you had turned off Audyssey in the Denon, it would sound the same as Yamaha.

But I am a fan of Yamaha.

 

[bommai]

I don't know what's the hype about Denon/Audyssey combo, after owning 2 Denon recievers (X500, X2300W), and replacing it with Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080 all I can say is my Speakers have gotten livelier, and sound is so much more robust with lots of mids and midbass to it.

With Denon AVRs music sounded tiny/Shrill with lack of details and mids.

I think Yamaha makes better AVRs, and they focus on quality rather than quantity.

Also, my VCR never worked using Denon Reciever, but it worked on the yamaha just fine with the RCA cable.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

Isn’t the RX-A1080 similar to denon x3600. Why would you compare it to the lower end denon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[PENG]

Isn’t the RX-A1080 similar to denon x3600. Why would you compare it to the lower end denon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Those talks of comparable gear sounding different are likely due to not comparing apple to apple (e.g. DSP on, different EQ, settings, volume not matched etc....etc...). Or, if in direct/pure direct mode, and compared apple to apple, then it is still the individua's subjective experience that may not apply to others.

 

[Gmoney]

I am a Yamaha fan.

I never liked any Room Correction EQ - Audyssey, YPAO, ARC, Dirac, etc. You might feel the same.

When you switched to Yamaha and didn't use any room EQ, you probably preferred the sound without any room EQ.

Thus, I don't think it was a case of Denon SQ vs Yamaha SQ. I think it was a case of EQ (Audyssey) vs No EQ (Yamaha).

I think if you had turned off Audyssey in the Denon, it would sound the same as Yamaha.

But I am a fan of Yamaha.

You are a fan of Yamaha, but with that said
I can not recommend the new Yamaha 2020 AVR's. On another post Yamaha, Denon and Marantz have found out that the issues with the new 2.1 HDMI are Not Firmware Fixable! Panasonic done went and F..kup their chip! So my New RX-V6A is going back today! Man I'm pissed cause I really like this new AVR, I don't game so I won't need the new 2.1 and I don't see myself getting a 8K TV in the near either. I could just hold up and see what Yamaha will do but sending it back for a full refund makes better sense.

 

[Mark E. Long]

Going to be a lot of service centers very busy when they work this out .