Yamaha or Denon for build quality and audio quality

[rnatalli]

I generally prefer Denon until you reach $1K. For me, they're just as reliable as Yamaha receivers, I prefer Audyssey, and they generally do better on the bench than their Yamaha cousins at this price point. I find Audyssey's ability to EQ the sub and DEQ superior to Yamaha's YPAO and Adaptive DRC. All that said, Yamaha would be a very close second.

 

[3db]

I generally prefer Denon until you reach $1K. For me, they're just as reliable as Yamaha receivers, I prefer Audyssey, and they generally do better on the bench than their Yamaha cousins at this price point.

In two channel mode, Denon does not hold the advantage over Yamaha. Actually Yamaha tends to surpass Denon in that regard. Its only the 5 and 7 channel tests where Denon beginst to beat Yamaha. That is the fault of Yamaha's overly aggressive protection circuit.

 

[Plexmulti9]

Curious to what your reasons are if you don't mind?

I find that the results can be quite mixed between being a benefit or making a mess of things depending on the system, room, etc.

Another thing that I run into more often than not is that people's individual tastes and expectations are really all over the place when it comes down to things like: How loud are the rear surrounds and with what content? What DB is the center channel at over/under/even with the mains? How much bass is too much or not enough? And on down the list. It's easiest to set ourselves down with a client after we set it to what we feel is correct and then make corrections based off of their preferences.

That being said, my favorite system in the world uses a version of Audyssey and is absolutely perfect every single time. But, it was designed around Audyssey and the speakers are all active (no physical crossover) with the amp's software doing the crossing over & Audyssey working together to make over 8000 corrections to the drivers bringing the room into a reference curve. This system hits THX Ultra2 DBs while playing flat at listening positions in rooms up to 18,000 cubic feet. It's quite devastating. I will try to get a video up of it this evening at some point.

Are you talking about the RX-V1010 model line up? What ever came right after the RX-V1900/3900 models were just awful.

That sounds about right. Our rep has been doing Yamaha for a long time and knew my aversions toward the brand because of the past several years. He said that two years ago, with Aventage, they really changed how they approached the receiver market. He gave me one to try and we loved it!

 

[rnatalli]

In two channel mode, Denon does not hold the advantage over Yamaha. Actualyy Yamaha tends to surpass Denon in that regard. Its only the 5 and 7 channel tests where Denon beginst to beat Yamaha. That is the fault of Yamaha's overly aggressive protection circuit.

This isn't necessarily true anymore either. Take a look at the bench test for the Denon E400 and the more expensive Yamaha Aventage 730. The Denon beats it in 2-channel by a little and stomps on the Yamaha into 7 channels. I don't think it's the protection circuit and Yamaha simply has the weaker power supply in their receivers at this price point.

Denon AVR-E400 AV Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision
Yamaha RX-A730 Network A/V Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision

 

[Plexmulti9]

This isn't necessarily true anymore either. Take a look at the bench test for the Denon E400 and the more expensive Yamaha Aventage 730. The Denon beats it in 2-channel by a little and stomps on the Yamaha into 7 channels. I don't think it's the protection circuit and Yamaha simply has the weaker power supply in their receivers at this price point.

Denon AVR-E400 AV Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision
Yamaha RX-A730 Network A/V Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision

Maybe I am reading this wrong?

2 channels

Yamaha @ 4ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 145.1
1 percent distortion at 183.8 watts

Yamaha @ 8ohm
0.1% distortion at 115.5 watts
1% distortion at 134.7 watts


Denon @ 4ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 93.3 watts
1 percent distortion at 166.4 watts

Denon @ 8ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 130.0 watts
1 percent distortion at 116.5 watts

The all channel numbers are out of whack in comparison, but that seems strange given the two channel performance numbers, doesn't it?

I will also say that a common gripe on Yamaha's entry level AVENTAGE pieces is poor video processing, but I never use that feature and always set up pass through to the display.

Lastly, on the power supply, amplifier quality issue: With the sample our rep gave us Yamaha listed 2ohm specs. So I hooked up 3 pair of 8ohm speakers off of the front L/R channels to see if it would blow up or go protect. It didn't! It played all day at our design center in the warehouse fairly loud. other than getting hot, I thought this was amazing from a receiver to be honest. Durability with receivers is my number one concern and I thought this really spoke volumes as to the quality of build in the Yamaha stuff.

 

[LAB3]

This isn't necessarily true anymore either. Take a look at the bench test for the Denon E400 and the more expensive Yamaha Aventage 730. The Denon beats it in 2-channel by a little and stomps on the Yamaha into 7 channels. I don't think it's the protection circuit and Yamaha simply has the weaker power supply in their receivers at this price point.

Denon AVR-E400 AV Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision
Yamaha RX-A730 Network A/V Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision

WOW that series Yamaha is not a good buy vs that Denon, it has stats more like my RX-V1900 or my Onkyo TX-SR805 that was over $1,000.00 retail back then. No One paid that for it jus sayin. I have $800.00 in my RX-V1900 and that came with best Buys two year extra warranty.I am not a member of that site do they have a test on any of my amps or AVR's in my signature below? I am curious what my 1900 bench tests. It rocks my odd collection... 5.2 HT system great...small den and subs are self powered so I only use 5 of the 7 amps for HT. I use my vintage Yamaha A-1000 Integrated Class A,AB(10 A, 140AB) for analog use R2R Tt and Cd's with Cornwall's and subs(sometimes) via Niles Audio SPK-1 amp/speaker selector. Thanks for the links.

 

[3db]

Maybe I am reading this wrong?

2 channels

Yamaha @ 4ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 145.1
1 percent distortion at 183.8 watts

Yamaha @ 8ohm
0.1% distortion at 115.5 watts
1% distortion at 134.7 watts


Denon @ 4ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 93.3 watts
1 percent distortion at 166.4 watts

Denon @ 8ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 130.0 watts
1 percent distortion at 116.5 watts

The all channel numbers are out of whack in comparison, but that seems strange given the two channel performance numbers, doesn't it?

I will also say that a common gripe on Yamaha's entry level AVENTAGE pieces is poor video processing, but I never use that feature and always set up pass through to the display.

Lastly, on the power supply, amplifier quality issue: With the sample our rep gave us Yamaha listed 2ohm specs. So I hooked up 3 pair of 8ohm speakers off of the front L/R channels to see if it would blow up or go protect. It didn't! It played all day at our design center in the warehouse fairly loud. other than getting hot, I thought this was amazing from a receiver to be honest. Durability with receivers is my number one concern and I thought this really spoke volumes as to the quality of build in the Yamaha stuff.

Given the power reserves in their 2 channel performance, it behooves me why Yamaha is so agressive in their protection circuit when it comes to all channels driven. Its not a valid test anyway as there are very few selections out there where all channels are being used full spectrum with equal db signal strength throughout all channels.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In two channel mode, Denon does not hold the advantage over Yamaha. Actually Yamaha tends to surpass Denon in that regard. Its only the 5 and 7 channel tests where Denon beginst to beat Yamaha. That is the fault of Yamaha's overly aggressive protection circuit.

Depends on the models.

1% THD output 2Ch 8ohm/ 2Ch 4ohm/ 5Ch 8ohm:
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0<O</O
$1200 Yamaha RX-A1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1500 Yamaha RX-A2000: 189.3/287.4/79.9<O</O
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1<O</O

The Z11 has 8W more for 2Ch 8ohm, 48W more for 2Ch 4ohm, 1W less for 5Ch 8 ohm, all are insignificant.

When comparing the $1500 Yamaha to the $1200 Denon, the $1500 Yamaha has 46W more on 2Ch 8ohm, 62W more on 2Ch 4ohm, 24W less on 5Ch 8ohm. Again, insignificant since we know it takes twice the power for 3dB increase volume.

So I think power output (and all the spec) is a toss up.

The difference will be Audyssey XT32, dual Sub EQ, and DEQ vs. Yamaha's own proprietary.

I still don't even see an equivalent to Audyssey DEQ since Yamaha only has the adaptive dynamic volume, which is just dynamic compression. Denon has dual sub EQ vs. Yamaha's single sub EQ.

Also, if you like Direct & Pure Direct modes, Denon allows subwoofer output in D & PD modes, while I think Yamaha does not allow subwoofer output in PD/D mode. I can't remember about Yamaha.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Denon @ 8ohm
0.1 percent distortion at 130.0 watts
1 percent distortion at 116.5 watts

S&V screwed up there. It should be the other way around. The 1% THD should be 130W and the 0.1% should be 116W.

That's it. I'm cancelling my subscription.

But seriously, I think the difference in power output between these AVR is pretty insignificant.

 

[3db]

Depends on the models.

1% THD output 2Ch 8ohm/ 2Ch 4ohm/ 5Ch 8ohm:
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0<o</o
$1200 Yamaha RX-A1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1500 Yamaha RX-A2000: 189.3/287.4/79.9<o</o
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1<o</o

The Z11 has 8W more for 2Ch 8ohm, 48W more for 2Ch 4ohm, 1W less for 5Ch 8 ohm, all are insignificant.

When comparing the $1500 Yamaha to the $1200 Denon, the $1500 Yamaha has 46W more on 2Ch 8ohm, 62W more on 2Ch 4ohm, 24W less on 5Ch 8ohm. Again, insignificant since we know it takes twice the power for 3dB increase volume.

So I think power output (and all the spec) is a toss up.

The difference will be Audyssey XT32, dual Sub EQ, and DEQ vs. Yamaha's own proprietary.

I still don't even see an equivalent to Audyssey DEQ since Yamaha only has the adaptive dynamic volume, which is just dynamic compression. Denon has dual sub EQ vs. Yamaha's single sub EQ.

Also, if you like Direct & Pure Direct modes, Denon allows subwoofer output in D & PD modes, while I think Yamaha does not allow subwoofer output in PD/D mode. I can't remember about Yamaha.

I agree the power delivery is a toss up but it was incorrectly claimed that Denon outperformed Yamaha which was not true. I'm quite happy living without Audyssey DEQ and don't see a need for it in my listening area.

 

[M Code]

We sell & install both Yamaha and Denon AVRs...
The reliability of Yamaha AVRs are much better than Denon..
We have actually steered away from Denon AVRs for (2) primary reasons..
1st is that they are not as reliable, 2nd is that their pricing & distribution is out-of-control, they have many unauthorized sellers on the internet and who offer low pricing but have no service capability..

Just my $0.05...

 

[rnatalli]

Depends on the models.

1% THD output 2Ch 8ohm/ 2Ch 4ohm/ 5Ch 8ohm:
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0<o</o
$1200 Yamaha RX-A1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1500 Yamaha RX-A2000: 189.3/287.4/79.9<o</o
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1<o</o

True, which is why I specifically stated Yamaha and Denon receivers under $1K; above $1K, things change quite a bit and especially above $5K.

We can agree to disagree but the E400 has a 37.6W advantage into 5 channels and a 35.2W advantage into 7 which is audible and significant IMO as it translates into a 3db gain in this case.

 

[Pyrrho]

We sell & install both Yamaha and Denon AVRs...
The reliability of Yamaha AVRs are much better than Denon..
We have actually steered away from Denon AVRs for (2) primary reasons..
1st is that they are not as reliable, 2nd is that their pricing & distribution is out-of-control, they have many unauthorized sellers on the internet and who offer low pricing but have no service capability..

Just my $0.05...

Whatever else people claim, reliability is important for anyone who does not have enough money for constant repairs or replacement. Yet it is one of the most underrated qualities when people select things. They want more bells and whistles, and then later on come along and complain about their problems. If you buy an unreliable piece of gear, then you are taking a risk of problems. Is it worth it to you to take a chance? Decide however you wish, but don't complain about the consequences of your choice when the facts have been presented to you.

As things are at present, I would buy a Yamaha. If you want to have something else, fine, but don't complain about the consequences of your choice. You chose it. To use a homely expression, you have buttered your bread, now eat it.

 

[Pyrrho]

True, which is why I specifically stated Yamaha and Denon receivers under $1K; above $1K, things change quite a bit and especially above $5K.

We can agree to disagree but the E400 has a 37.6W advantage into 5 channels and a 35.2W advantage into 7 which is audible and significant IMO as it translates into a 3db gain in this case.

You might want to read this article:

The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test | Audioholics

Aside from the fact that the "all channels driven" test is not representative of real-world performance, a 3dB difference, though noticeable, is not dramatic. Try it on your receiver that uses dB on the volume control; 3dB, though easily audible, is not exactly an earthshaking difference.

 

[RichB]

You might want to read this article:

The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test | Audioholics

Aside from the fact that the "all channels driven" test is not representative of real-world performance, a 3dB difference, though noticeable, is not dramatic. Try it on your receiver that uses dB on the volume control; 3dB, though easily audible, is not exactly an earthshaking difference.

Couldn't a more robust power supply also translate into a greater ability to handle musical peaks?

- Rich

 

[3db]

Couldn't a more robust power supply also translate into a greater ability to handle musical peaks?

- Rich

Its not the problem of Yamaha's power supplies being able to meet the demand. Its an overly agressive protection circuit at play. Its been acknowledged by Gene and company and by Home Theater Magazine that Yamaha's protection circuits kick in far too easily. If you look at Yamaha's two channel tests, you will see that Yamaha power supplies supply more than enough power.

THe capabilities of Yamaha AVR's
Yamaha RX-A3000 Aventage Measurement and Analysis (Power Tests) | Audioholics

 

[RichB]

Its not the problem of Yamaha's power supplies being able to meet the demand. Its an overly agressive protection circuit at play. Its been acknowledged by Gene and company and by Home Theater Magazine that Yamaha's protection circuits kick in far too easily. If you look at Yamaha's two channel tests, you will see that Yamaha power supplies supply more than enough power.

THe capabilities of Yamaha AVR's
Yamaha RX-A3000 Aventage Measurement and Analysis (Power Tests) | Audioholics

If these circuits result in peak limiting, then the Yamaha's might be at a disadvantage.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The E400 has a 37.6W advantage into 5 channels and a 35.2W advantage into 7 which is audible and significant IMO as it translates into a 3db gain in this case.

Denon: 84.7W 5Ch/ 69.5W 7Ch
Yamaha: 67.2W 5Ch/ 33.3W 7Ch

The 5Ch advantage of the Denon is only 17.5W, not 37.6W.

The 7Ch advantage of the Denon is indeed significant since it is over twice the Yamaha.

So if you use 7Ch stereo mode, that could be very significant.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Reliability is extremely important to me.

But Audyssey XT Dynamic EQ is just as important because that gives me much better sound quality.

So to me, I have to weigh reliability (assuming the Denon X4000 and above are also not as reliable) vs. sound quality.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We sell & install both Yamaha and Denon AVRs...
The reliability of Yamaha AVRs are much better than Denon..
We have actually steered away from Denon AVRs for (2) primary reasons..
1st is that they are not as reliable, 2nd is that their pricing & distribution is out-of-control, they have many unauthorized sellers on the internet and who offer low pricing but have no service capability..

Just my $0.05...

Are we talking about the Denon AVR-5308, 4308, 4311, X4000, etc., or the Denon E300, E400, X1000?