Yamaha or Denon for build quality and audio quality

[eJeremye]

I'd like to get a new receiver to use with my Energy Reference Connoisseur 7.1 speaker setup. I have RC-70s up front, a RC-LCR center, RC-10s as side surrounds,a pair of Take5s as back surrounds and a Bic America F12 Sub.

My current receiver is a Sony STR-DG820. I'd like a new receiver that will have noticeably better audio quality and last many many years. I'm considering getting a Yamaha Aventage rx-a1030 or a Denon Avr-x4000. Or another option?

It seems that the Yamaha has better build quality but the Denon has Audyssey.
Which is a better choice? Thank you for your opinions.

 

[fuzz092888]

It just depends on the feature set you drift towards the most. I don't know that overall build quality will be much better than the Denon's, but the Yamaha's are supposed to have a bit better amp section. As for the auto correction software, the yamaha software allows for more tweaking ability, but what appears to be a little bit poorer auto correction. Whereas Audyssey does a better job if you don't have to have to touch a thing, but doesn't allow for much if any tweaking if there's something you don't like about what it did. Also, Audyssey and Denon units usually have other features that are only on Audyssey units, like dynamic EQ and volume which can be nice.

Either unit should be excellent, it really just boils down to which one has the features you want more.

 

[Pyrrho]

Unless there is something wrong with your receiver, or your speakers are difficult to drive, you ought not expect much difference in sound quality from different receivers. Assuming you have everything set up right, it is speakers (which includes subwoofers) that you should be looking to replace, not a receiver, for improvements in sound quality.

And if your speakers are difficult to drive, you probably want a receiver with preamp outputs, and will probably want to buy a separate power amp for them.


If you want new features, then the receiver is what should be replaced.

As for Yamaha versus Denon for a receiver, I would go with Yamaha. Many others here would go with Denon. It is hard to complain much about either choice.

 

[PENG]

I have had a few Denon and only one Yamaha so far and have no issue with any of them. If Yamaha has Audyssey XT32 or even just XT I wouldn't mind trying one but they don't. So I am biased as I feel Audyssey's Dynamic EQ is a must have feature for people who don't have the freedom (or by choice) to listen at reference level.

 

[Tomorrow]

The Yamaha does indeed have Dynamic EQ...it's called "Adaptive DRC" (Dynamic Range Control). It'll do the same thing as the Denon. I've had Denon and Yamaha and liked them both for different reasons...and EQ mode is not one of them. I have faith in neither the Audyssey nor the YPAO to get everything right. If either has an advantage, it would be the Yamaha with its increased 'tweakability'.

I do prefer the amp section on the Yamaha, but prefer the Dolby PLIIZ on the Denon. (The Yamaha uses "presence" speaker setups rather than Denon's "height" or "wide" capabilities. The "height" use in my system sounds pretty cool.)

As others have said, you can't go wrong with either receiver...and I believe you should upgrade out of the Sony. Good luck with your new toy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Yamaha does indeed have Dynamic EQ...it's called "Adaptive DRC" (Dynamic Range Control). It'll do the same thing as the Denon.

Is DRC the same thing as Audyssey Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume (which I think is Denon's dynamic range control)?

Audyssey Dynamic Volume allows you to tweak the level of Dynamic Range, which I don't like at all.

It seems to me Audyssey DEQ mainly controls the Subwoofer, not the rest of the frequencies (to my ears).

The X4000 also has dual Sub EQ. Does the Yamaha have dual Sub EQ?

I don't see any difference between Audyssey Flat vs. Bypass in my system, but I see an unequivocal advantage of DEQ over Bypass.

DEQ doesn't just increase the Sub trim levels/CH levels. I can manually increase the sub levels in the AVR and it doesn't really do much in terms of SQ, but rather just shake my house like crazy.

DEQ seems to smooth/even out the bass and makes the bass "punchier" to me. I end up DECREASING my Sub levels. Yet, I seem to hear better SQ punchier snappier tighter bass and the rest of my house doesn't seem to shake like a rag doll.

 

[DannyA]

The Yamaha does indeed have Dynamic EQ...it's called "Adaptive DRC" (Dynamic Range Control). It'll do the same thing as the Denon. I've had Denon and Yamaha and liked them both for different reasons...and EQ mode is not one of them. I have faith in neither the Audyssey nor the YPAO to get everything right. If either has an advantage, it would be the Yamaha with its increased 'tweakability'.

I didn't like YPAO. Not very accurate for me anyway.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

 

[PENG]

The Yamaha does indeed have Dynamic EQ...it's called "Adaptive DRC" (Dynamic Range Control). It'll do the same thing as the Denon.

You might have mixed Adaptive DRC up with DEQ. You can read about DEQ here:

Dynamic EQ | Audyssey

Adaptive DRC is more comparable with Denon's Audyssey Dynamic Volume that also plays with DR.

Dynamic Volume | Audyssey

One thing I like about DEQ is that with it on I don't feel that there is any compromising in the overall sound quality, it just does it job to compensate for our perception of low frequencies and surround effects when listening at well below reference level. I never did like the ancient "loudness" control but this DEQ thing is a totally different animal, a very likable one.

Regarding amp section, Yamaha tend to have better specs (from bench test results) in the preamp section whereas Denon seems to have the edge on the power amp section in terms bench tested output especially in the all channel driven scenarios. Overall I would put them in par as far as the amps go. So I guess most of us can agree that one cannot do much wrong going with either brand.

 

[RichB]

I have not heard them, but you might want to take a look at Anthem. Their room correction and sound quality are well regarded.
Plus, they finally look good

Anthem® | Performance Collection | MRX 710 | Specifications

- Rich

 

[surveyor]

If it were my money I'd buy the Denon Avr-x4000! I like and own a Yamaha AVR, but my Denons' are my favorites!

 

[sgtjim]

Own the Denon. Zero complaints. I do not use the amp sections at this time driving m XPA-5 as a pre. Buy the Denon, it's just that good.

 

[Tomorrow]

You might have mixed Adaptive DRC up with DEQ. You can read about DEQ here:

Dynamic EQ | Audyssey

Adaptive DRC is more comparable with Denon's Audyssey Dynamic Volume that also plays with DR.

Dynamic Volume | Audyssey

One thing I like about DEQ is that with it on I don't feel that there is any compromising in the overall sound quality, it just does it job to compensate for our perception of low frequencies and surround effects when listening at well below reference level. I never did like the ancient "loudness" control but this DEQ thing is a totally different animal, a very likable one.

Regarding amp section, Yamaha tend to have better specs (from bench test results) in the preamp section whereas Denon seems to have the edge on the power amp section in terms bench tested output especially in the all channel driven scenarios. Overall I would put them in par as far as the amps go. So I guess most of us can agree that one cannot do much wrong going with either brand.

I respectfully bow to Peng's wisdom on this matter. It is indeed a matter of a bit more than semantics. And thanks for your comments ADTG.

EDIT: But one can expect this sort of confusion at my age!

 

[eJeremye]

Thank you all for your comments. If I'm only going to be using one Sub would a Denon X-3000 be a good choice? Do I only need Sub HT EQ if I have 2 subs? The X3000 still has Audyssey XT32.
Ultimately what I'm looking for is better audio quality than my Sony STR-DG820.

 

[M Code]

Yamaha has better build quality and reliability, the Denon AVRs are outsourced through the Sherwood/Inkel factory...

Just my $0.05...

 

[PENG]

Thank you all for your comments. If I'm only going to be using one Sub would a Denon X-3000 be a good choice? Do I only need Sub HT EQ if I have 2 subs? The X3000 still has Audyssey XT32.
Ultimately what I'm looking for is better audio quality than my Sony STR-DG820.

I also owned a couple of Sonys before and can honestly say in pure direct (I think Sony ES has one call analog pure direct mode) you really won't hear much difference at lower listening levels. In terms of processed sound all bets are off, it will be highly subjective and the X4000 has better (IMO) processing stuff. Given that your speakers are RC-70, I suggest you set them to small and crossover at 80 Hz.

If the X3000 has preouts, fine but I don't they do so in that case I would stick with the X4000. If you believe in Audyssey (you should), then it is better to go with Yamaha and even their lower models such as 830, offer 7.2 preouts. Preouts are good to have in case you end up going with a 2,3 or 5 channel amp to take some burden off the AVR. For example, for peace of mind so you know you are getting the best out of the RC-70, you can simply add a two channel power amp to drive the L/R and enjoy pure direct stereo sound, or 2.1 (sub assisted) stereo with the benefit of having enough power for the RC-70 even at higher volume than you can tolerate.

 

[3db]

I didn't like YPAO. Not very accurate for me anyway.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

You can tweek YPAO to get where you want it but you cannot with Auddessy.

On a practical note, I wonder if there is a real life difference between YPAO and Auddessy if one were to switch between the two in real time. I don't trust anyone's memory including my own to say one is better than the other. The switch needs to be done r/t and blind to make the test valid.

 

[3db]

....
Regarding amp section, Yamaha tend to have better specs (from bench test results) in the preamp section whereas Denon seems to have the edge on the power amp section in terms bench tested output especially in the all channel driven scenarios. Overall I would put them in par as far as the amps go. So I guess most of us can agree that one cannot do much wrong going with either brand.

I honestly think its a toss up between Denon and Yamaha's amp sections. From all the tests I've read on Yamaha products, a common theme of an overly conservative protection mechanism was at play to limit the power delivery of Yamaha's AVR. It kicked in way too early in all of the reports I've read.

 

[herbu]

You can tweek YPAO to get where you want it but you cannot with Auddessy.

Sorry, I keep seeing statements like this, and don't understand.
I can run Auddessy then tweek Distance/Volume/Crossovers/LFE/etc w/ my X4000. Seem to remember I could do the same w/ previous Yamaha.
What is it I cannot tweek w/ my X4000 Auddessy?

(Hope I'm not sorry I asked. Happy now, but once I learn there is something I cannot do, it might eat at me.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

EDIT: But one can expect this sort of confusion at my age!

Well, as complex as these machines get, we can expect confusion at any age.

Of course, preference is another matter.

For example, some people actually like what DRC/Dynamic Volume does. It increases the low volumes and decrease the high volumes, but some people like that.

I don't like that because although I like to increase the low volumes, I don't want to decrease the high volumes.

It depends on your music too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I honestly think its a toss up between Denon and Yamaha's amp sections. From all the tests I've read on Yamaha products, a common theme of an overly conservative protection mechanism was at play to limit the power delivery of Yamaha's AVR. It kicked in way too early in all of the reports I've read.

Yamaha & HK seem to put some limits on their 5CH & 7CH outputs, but their 2CH outputs are good.

Power Output 2CH 8 ohms/ 2CH 4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms:

$1200 Denon 3312- 143.3/225.5/103W
$1200 Yamaha 1020- 129.2/173.0/73.2W
$1000 HK 3700- 170.2/280.4/40.6W

$580 Denon 1913- 117.7/151.1/81.7W
$550 Yamaha 573- 111.4/126.2/24.9W
$450 Yamaha 473- 96.5/143.2/Protection mode
$350 Denon 1612- 110.3/150.7/78.1W

So even a $350 Denon outputs more power x 5CH than both the $1200 Yamaha & $1,000 HK AVR.

For 2Ch, HK is pretty great. But the 5Ch (40W) and 7Ch (33W) really suck.

Harman likes to advertise their Logic7 DSP, which is like 7CH Stereo mode. But @ 33WPC x 7Ch, that might not cut it if your volume is even a little high and/or speakers are 4 ohms/low sensitivity, etc.